Therese Hamilton wrote: You know, for personality and behavior, we don't have to use labels and descriptive systems if we don't want to. We can simply describe Fern's behavior: She's a sad little girl who feels isolated form her peers. She sees life as a series of disappointments and cries a lot. Her basic personality is Saturnian, is it not? In addition, tears are wet. So in the sidereal zodiac we have:
Saturn
Ascendant in the terms of Saturn
Moon in terms of Saturn
Ascendant lord Jupiter in fall in Saturn-ruled Capricorn
Sun, Moon's south node and MC are in the sign of the Sun's fall, Libra. (That is, sidereal Libra has a Saturnian tone.)
Saturn itself is in a sign inimical to itself, Mars-ruled Scorpio.
Pluto is with the Sun, but traditional astrologers don't use Pluto. However, psychologically Pluto can actually be very lonely and isolated, just like the actual body of Pluto itself on the fringes of the solar system. (This is from Garth Allen in the western sidereal system.)
Venus-Tears
Venus is traditionally accepted as wet. (Arabic cold and moist) Here it's in its fall in Virgo and squaring the ascendant. It's dispositor Mercury is in Scorpio with an unhappy Saturn.
What more do we need to say if we're looking for a personality immersed in sadness?
The title of this thread is "Traditional TECHNIQUES in the Sidereal." I'm not one for philosophical arguments or endless discussion. I don't have the time or mental energy for either. Even writing a short post is tiring. I have a great deal more going on in life, and writing takes intense concentration. I'm interested in practical demonstrations of how planets operate in the sidereal zodiac in light of their traditional placements in signs (domicile, exaltation, fall, triplicity, etc.) Fern's chart is a prime example of the negative effects of planets in signs inimical to themselves.
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It is very difficult for astrologers to escape psychological terminology and theory. ''Personality '? and ??Behaviour?? , what exactly are we talking about here? Innate/Learnt, Coherent/In- coherent, Conscious/Unconscious, Verbal/Non-verbal, Active /Re-active, Overt/Covert etc. Some astrologers use more laymen?s or popular language such as sadness. A ?sad ?person may cry a lot but a depressed person little, even though this mood may resemble or feel like sadness. When one is depressed the mental state is more apathetic, so crying is not an inevitable or even predictable behavioural outcome. If we go back to the arresting of empathy, the baby may initially cry a lot seeking care and food but after a while will stop and eventually give up, ending up in a state of 'learned helplessness' or depression.
You seem to be suggesting here the ?traditional? astrologer may expect those awarded a melancholic temperament to cry more or feel sadder than the phlegmatic? Perhaps it?s the opposite. I would expect a dourness or gloominess in the melancholic (earth signs) and more sadness with the phlegmatic (water signs).
Greenbaum seeks to separate temperament from personality by suggesting temperament is more ??inherent?.
??Our inborn temperament is also what we fall back on when faced with a new situation: are we the take-charge, choleric type who rushes in to meet every new experience with gusto? Or the quiet melancholic, who hangs back and analyzes and would rather die than be the life of the party? Are we sanguine, looking to make new friends and social contacts, or phlegmatic and just want to be left alone.??- Greenbaum.
If we replace temperament, or merge it with the personality would this be inaccurate? The dictionary suggests temperament is part of the personality which as the totality of a person incorporates the characteristic manners of thinking, etc ?.....
tem?per?a?ment
The manner of thinking, behaving, or reacting characteristic of a specific person.
Per?son?al?i?ty
The totality of qualities and traits, as of character or behaviour, that is peculiar to a specific person.
Curiously, and contrary to the more academic definitions, the common usage of temperament today , (even though it tends to be employed more often with animals than humans), suggests a more innate quality to it than personality . What particularly interests me about these traditional temperament, points for this and that, systems is the absence of the Sun. This suggests it's rationale may have been seeking to identify something more unconscious and instinctive. Which is how Psychological Astrologers think about the Moon.
Are you interpreting Saturn?s exaltation in Libra in a way which suggests it has a malefic influence there? I would see the logic of its exaltation there as something like interpersonal engagements (Libra) require rules (Saturn). A positive more than a negative. I assumed exaltation was always a positive in the ?tradition?. Perhaps wrongly?
Further, Tropical Pluto is not to my knowledge seen as isolated or lonely, partly because it is seen as a collective planet (often) and these are more personal/impersonal states. Also partly because I thought these meanings are usually linked to Saturn as it was initially the furthest away of the visible planets?
The introductory notes on the Qualities of this thread were for only one purpose: To clear up the misconception that the sidereal signs are similar to the tropical signs of the same name. That is, sidereal Aries is NOT like Tropical Aries. It's like the following Tropical sign, Taurus, and (as I've used them) the philosophical meanings of Aristotle's qualities have been used to partly describe the triplicities.
The Western Sidereal astrologers I have bumped into, Bowser a notable example, use similar meanings to the Tropicalists. Debates arise along the lines of is Barack Obama kind, needy, conservative. responsible, and practical or warm, generous, detached, liberal and curious. Or using a Temperament system is he Melancholic or Sanguine.
Using your schema, as I understand it, in time Sidereal Capricorn resembles Tropical Pisces and eventually all the constellations will. Wouldn?t it be more coherent for a Sidereal astrologer not to employ the seasonal associations which sign meanings appear to contain and use meanings which can be linked more directly to the constellations?
Sidereally this trigon would be one hundred percent masculine in rulership and energy. (Remembering that masculine here is a different concept than the popular tropical understanding of the word, and refers in part to solar qualities. [Tropical earth: direct, constant, self-motivating, relies on own perceptions, able to use will power to manifest events]
I'm puzzled by this as well. Tropical Fire Signs are seen as direct, etc. The only disposition here linked to Earth signs is, or could be, 'constant' but you appear to link these other 4 manifestations/behaviours to Tropical Earth not Fire.
