Skyscript Astrology Forum

It's been a long time since I've struggled with the KP Readers, but the KP system is essentially a timing system based on planetary hours. The Placidus house system roughly aligns with the planetary hours as blocks of time. The KP system is probably the most exact for horary work, but it may be a mistake to apply it to natal astrology.

The varga (divisional) charts and terms (bounds) used in classical western astrology are based on the signs of the zodiac. There is no relationship to the KP daily cycles measured in planetary hours.

The ayanamsa which K.S. Krishnamurti discovered can be used independently of the KP timing system. So some astrologers like myself have adopted it for use in natal astrology. I've also relinquished the KP sub periods in favor of the navamsa and other vargas. The KP sub periods may be useful only in timing events. This area needs a lot of research.

One aspect of the KP system which I'm finding to be valid is how dasas (and their sub periods) are used. I think we've all had the experience of finding ourselves under the period of a planet ruling a certain house, but our lives don't reflect activities related to that house.

The KP system tells us to look instead to lords of the lunar mansions (incorrectly termed "nakshatras" ever since the ancient nakshatras have been changed to 27 equal divisions of the zodiac) along with other factors. Krishnamurti calls these 27 divisions "stars," a nice easy term to remember and type. But their use in the Vimshottari dasa system is another topic altogether.

Therese Hamilton wrote:It's been a long time since I've struggled with the KP Readers, but the KP system is essentially a timing system based on planetary hours. The Placidus house system roughly aligns with the planetary hours as blocks of time. The KP system is probably the most exact for horary work, but it may be a mistake to apply it to natal astrology.

KP uses Placidus houses, but has no other connection to planetary hours that I know of. Its basic idea is the division of the zodiac into 249 minute divisions called 'subs' (unequal divisions of the 27 [equal] nakshatras, corresponding to the subperiods of Vimshottari dasha). This is applied to natal as well as horary work.

Martin, I see that I didn't explain myself very well so I'll try again. K.S. Krishnamurti may or may not have understood the technical basis for the Placidus system of house division. But it is the only house system that divides time taken to cover space. Since the planetary hours are divisions of time between sunrise and sunset (and the reverse), the Placidus houses are related to those hours. Each house covers two planetary hours.

So Krishnamurti was correct in using the Placidus houses for his horary work which was based on the precise timing of events. But, no, Krishnamurti didn't consciously relate Placidus houses to planetary hours as far as I know, though he did use planetary hours in his horary work.

I personally don't like the Placidus house system, but it has been said to be the most exact for personality. Since I don't link planets in houses to personality, I've never tested that idea. Also, of course, Placidus houses fail in high latitudes. For those interested in the technical explanation of the various system of house division:

The Modern Textbook of Astrology by Margaret Hone
Larousse Encyclopedia of Astrology (Out of print, but a very good reference book.)

Also a search turned up this quote from Deb Houlding's house system article on the the Skyscript site:

...The Placidus system is purely time-based and thus offers perfect harmony with the use of planetary hours, adding credence to the claim that this could have been an original method of house division, based upon the two-hourly 'watches' of ancient astrologers, who numbered the constellations in the order that the stars within them rose to the ascendant during the twelve watches of the 24-hour period...
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/houprob4.html

Therese Hamilton wrote:Since the planetary hours are divisions of time between sunrise and sunset (and the reverse), the Placidus houses are related to those hours.

That is often said, but in my opinion the connection is a tenuous one. The planetary hours are based on sunrise and sunset, just as you say; Placidus house cusps are based on the individual semi-arcs of every single degree (or even minute or second of arc, depending on the precision sought) of the ecliptic. Calculating planetary hours by hand is a cinch; calculating Placidus houses is torture.

So Krishnamurti was correct in using the Placidus houses for his horary work which was based on the precise timing of events.

This sounds as if you are suggesting some sort of link between timing of events, horary, and planetary hours (tying the latter to Placidus houses), but if so, I'm afraid I don't understand it. Do you mean to say that Placidus houses should be better suited for timing events because the system itself is time-based? (In any case, KP was developed on the basis of natal horoscopes -- twin births, in fact.)

Martin Gansten wrote:

Therese Hamilton wrote:Since the planetary hours are divisions of time between sunrise and sunset (and the reverse), the Placidus houses are related to those hours.

That is often said, but in my opinion the connection is a tenuous one. The planetary hours are based on sunrise and sunset, just as you say; Placidus house cusps are based on the individual semi-arcs of every single degree (or even minute or second of arc, depending on the precision sought) of the ecliptic. Calculating planetary hours by hand is a cinch; calculating Placidus houses is torture.

Then the supposed connection isn't exact then? I admit to simply quoting what I've read.

Therese: So Krishnamurti was correct in using the Placidus houses for his horary work which was based on the precise timing of events.

This sounds as if you are suggesting some sort of link between timing of events, horary, and planetary hours (tying the latter to Placidus houses), but if so, I'm afraid I don't understand it. Do you mean to say that Placidus houses should be better suited for timing events because the system itself is time-based? (In any case, KP was developed on the basis of natal horoscopes -- twin births, in fact.)

I did believe that Krishnamurti chose Placidus houses because he found that Placidus cusps and planets in houses gave correct results for his horary readings. But I am only assuming this since it's been a long time since I studied the Readers. Martin, do you know how Krishnamurti came to choose the Placidus system? (I never did see the first two Readers. Was the information on twins in one of those books? I have the third through sixth Readers.)

Martin wrote:

KP uses Placidus houses, but has no other connection to planetary hours that I know of. Its basic idea is the division of the zodiac into 249 minute divisions called 'subs' (unequal divisions of the 27 [equal] nakshatras, corresponding to the subperiods of Vimshottari dasha). This is applied to natal as well as horary work.

Martin, what have you personally found to work best in natal work? Do you use the Krishnamurti subs? The navasma? Or both for different purposes? I do have the KP tables typed out, but I cannot remember how I used them or if I only experimented with the subs.

Therese Hamilton wrote:Then the supposed connection isn't exact then? I admit to simply quoting what I've read.

Well, it depends on what you mean. If you treat the ascendant degree like the Sun in the calculation of planetary hours (that is, you divide the time it spends above the horizon by 12), then two such 'hours' after birth, the natal ascendant degree will be on the 12th Placidus cusp; after another two 'hours' it will be on the 11th cusp; and so on. But that is not what we need to know in order to establish the actual Placidus cusps at birth (or at the time of a question, etc). To do that, we need to know which degree and minute of the ecliptic had traversed exactly 1/6 of its path above the horizon; which degree and minute had traversed 2/6; etc. There is no easy way of doing that by hand; it takes a lot of iteration, and is not remotely like the calculation of planetary hours.

I did believe that Krishnamurti chose Placidus houses because he found that Placidus cusps and planets in houses gave correct results for his horary readings. But I am only assuming this since it's been a long time since I studied the Readers. Martin, do you know how Krishnamurti came to choose the Placidus system? (I never did see the first two Readers. Was the information on twins in one of those books? I have the third through sixth Readers.)

I can't recall off-hand where he mentions the fact that twin births were what put him on to his theory; sorry. (You know what searching through those books would be like.) But the Placidus bit is easy: he got it, and other bits and pieces of western astrology (like aspect theory), from English astrology books, of which there were plenty in India -- the connecting link being not just the Raj, but Theosophy, which had strong links both to India and to the British astrological revival. I suppose it appealed to him because it looked precise, difficult and 'scientific'.

Therese Hamilton wrote:Martin, what have you personally found to work best in natal work? Do you use the Krishnamurti subs? The navasma? Or both for different purposes? I do have the KP tables typed out, but I cannot remember how I used them or if I only experimented with the subs.

I actually haven't used either for a number of years, although I have had interesting experiences with both. I haven't rejected them, but they don't perform consistently enough (in my hands anyway) for me to be able to trust them implicitly. The style of astrology I mainly do now could be called Tajika: it's largely medieval Perso-Arabic techniques in a sidereal zodiac.

Martin wrote:

I can't recall off-hand where [Krishnamurti] mentions the fact that twin births were what put him on to his theory; sorry. (You know what searching through those books would be like.) But the Placidus bit is easy: he got it, and other bits and pieces of western astrology (like aspect theory), from English astrology books, of which there were plenty in India -- the connecting link being not just the Raj, but Theosophy, which had strong links both to India and to the British astrological revival. I suppose it appealed to him because it looked precise, difficult and 'scientific'.

Reading the above, I'm wondering if Placidus cusps are even necessary for KP techniques. Certainly Krishnamurti's 249 zodiac divisions (or divisions of "stars") don't depend on Placidus houses. The square charts in the texts are a nightmare to read with the Placidus cusps. If I were younger I'd experiment with KP sans Placidus. Thanks for your extensive reply, Martin.

Hi all

This thread have made me wanting to experiment with the krishnamurti ayanamsha a bit.
I find that in solar fire it is called krishnamurti, but in sri jyoti star my vedic software there are two options "KP new" and "Varamahira KP".

Anyone knowing the difference ?


About the Ian Brady chart,
I find it a bit interesting that Ian Brady have a 'Kala sarpa yoga' in rashi chart. With rahu in scorpio (debilitation according to some) in the 8th house.
In the Navamsha chart is Rahu exact on Ascendent degree as someone mentioned here.

The actual murder of 5 kids according to wiki was in between july 63-oct 65.
Interesting that he was actually then in Rahu period, of the 8th house scorpio rahu.
Intensified Rahu obsessions of the more darker and negative dimensions of scorpio and 8th house it seems.

Stefan wrote:Hi all

This thread have made me wanting to experiment with the krishnamurti ayanamsha a bit.
I find that in solar fire it is called krishnamurti, but in sri jyoti star my vedic software there are two options "KP new" and "Varamahira KP".

Anyone knowing the difference ?

I remember checking "KP new" once, and it was different than the usual KP ayanamsa. But the program wasn't Sri Jyoti Star. "Varamahira KP" is someone's clever invention. It may be the genuine KP or another value. It would be best to calculate a chart in Solar Fire, and then see which of the two choices in Sri Jyoti Star matches the calculations.

About the Ian Brady chart,
I find it a bit interesting that Ian Brady [has] a 'Kala sarpa yoga' in rashi chart. With rahu in scorpio (debilitation according to some) in the 8th house.
In the Navamsha chart is Rahu exact on Ascendent degree as someone mentioned here.

I don't see this exact Rahu on the ascendant degree, though it's in the ascendant sign, Libra. I use the mean node, so it must be the "true" node that is exactly on the ascendant? If so, chalk up a point for the so-called true node.

Thanks for the info Theresa.

Yes it seems like 'Varamahira KP" give same longitude positions like Solar Fire "Krishnamurti" Ayananmsha"

You are also correct about the node. It IS the true node which I use currently. I used the mean node before but switched some time ago. Not sure which is most correct though.
In the lahiri chart it is an exact conjunction with the node and Ascendent (0.08 orb). I guess the Krishnamurti ayanamsha gives a somewhat similar result.
But then it is of course a matter of the actual birthtime is exact which seldom is the case.


Continue Ian Brady chart:
Rahu period points to Mars in more than one way it seems. Being in scorpio in rashi chart whith dispositor Mars.
Also Mars in the Shatabisha nakshatra which is ruled by rahu so rahu's period activate mars in that respect too.

So this mars so challenged in the Navamsha is in 5th house of children.
If using degrees in navamsha which I do. I notice there that mars is in the nakshatra of Purva Bhadrapada in the navamsha. This navamsha have a strong death symbolism by it's symbol being ' a funeral cot'.
( I have been learned that nakshatras can be used in divisional charts with good results, even thouth some jyotishis may rise their eyebrows.)

Later when he was put in jail in the april of 66 he was in Rahu-Saturn period. Saturn is in 12th house of jails there in rashi. Vimshottari is quite on the spot here Imo. Interesting study.