Stellar Tigger wrote:

Tom, Lincoln's chart has a lot more dignity than Trump's chart. Ghandi's chart is ok too but he's more like Trump. He's got Moon in the 11th in the natal and then in the 12th of the Fortune chart. I think his Spirit is in Sagittarius and that places a diurnal Saturn with Spirit.

The exact time and therefore house placements for both the charts of Lincoln and Gandhi's chart are uncertain. Rather than debate the ambiguous I suggest we get back to the focus of the thread.

Here is a chart of the Scottish millionaire Brian Souter. As birth time is recorded on birth certificates in Scotland this is AA data.

Along with his sister, Ann Gloag, Brian Souter founded the Stagecoach Group which started running bus services and expanded throughout the United Kingdom and internationally, also moving into rail franchises. The business was funded with the redundancy payment his father had received. Souter's businesses have made him one of the richest men in Scotland.

Souter has become a politically controversial figure. As an evangelical Christian and lay preacher he funded a campaign to stop the Scottish government liberalising the law regarding the then existing ban on same sex relationships being discussed as a lifestyle option in Scottish schools.

Souter has also been a supporter of the Scottish national party and has favoured independence. In 2011, he was awarded a Knighthood for services to transport and the voluntary sector, though the honour was criticised by Scottish Labour politicians and by Gay Rights campaigners.

Souter still lives in his home town of Perth with his wife and 4 children.

I have displayed the chart in Whole sign and for a quadrant system Alcabitius which I feel works better than Placidus this far north.
By WS Jupiter disposits H2 and H11 as well as the MC and is placed in the fortunate 5th house. Jupiter is angular by sign division. The Lot of Spirit is in the 2nd house in Pisces and also disposited by Jupiter. The communication link with Jupiter in Gemini is transparent. Jupiter is technically out of sect in a day chart but there are mitigations in its placement in a masculine sign and quadrant and being under the earth in a night chart.

The Moon is in sect light on the IC. Perhaps reflecting Souter's nationalist beliefs. Again this links into themes of travel and communication. The dispositor Mercury is in the 4th house in the fixed sign of Taurus. This possibly reflects the socially conservative values of Souter.

Looking at the Chart from the Lot of Fortune the exalted Mars in Capricorn is in sect, in a feminine sign, above the horizon at night in the 1st. Mars is therefore in hayz. The Sun and Mercury are in the angular 4th. However, Mercury is combust and the Sun is out of sect and in a feminine sign in a feminine quarter.

Saturn seems to be of little assistance here. Its peregrine, retrograde, out of sect, above the earth at night and in a feminine sign! However, it is the 10th HS house. As ASC ruler this may reflect the controversial effect Souter's conservative ideas have had in the public sphere. He has also been known to be a very tough negotiator with his employees. Despite his religious values he has openly stated that capitalism by necessity is a ruthless business.

Mark

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varuna2 wrote:I thought about looking at Donald Trump and noticed the birthtime is different at astrodatabank, which gives a time of 10:54 vs. 09:51.

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Trump,_Donald

Does someone know which time is correct?

I also looked up both Lincoln and Ghandi's charts on an astrology website, I had no idea their times were inaccurate.

Silvio Berlusconi - time mentioned by himself for an astrological consultation
Venus is detriment but in the second house.

Jupiter in the third house (communications) and in its sign. Part of Spirit in Jupiter sign too and in aspect by sign with its ruler.

margherita

Varuna 2 wrote:

I thought about looking at Donald Trump and noticed the birthtime is different at astrodatabank, which gives a time of 10:54 vs. 09:51.

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Trump,_Donald

Does someone know which time is correct?

Thanks for that. Just another reminder to check the data of charts people post up or discuss here. It looks like the time you mention is derived from an online birth certificate. Astrodatabank have therefore replaced the previous time of 09.51AM in the chart display with 10.54AM.

Fortunately, this doesn't change the delineation from a WS perpective much. Its still Leo rising and the Sun is still in hayz. However, the eminence indicators are even stronger with the ASC on the royal fixed star Regulus.

Astrodatabank cite the following data notes below the chart for Trump:

PT quotes birth certificate found online. Since the document was evidently posted by Trump, some caution is advised even though there is no evidence that the document was altered. Previously this entry was rated "A" (from memory) and had a birth time of 9:51 AM with the following source notes: LMR quotes a private source who obtained the data from his mother, confirmed by another astrologer who said, "He laughed, then called his mom."

margherita wrote:Silvio Berlusconi - time mentioned by himself for an astrological consultation

Venus is detriment but in the second house.

Jupiter in the third house (communications) and in its sign. Part of Spirit in Jupiter sign too and in aspect by sign with its ruler.

margherita

Hello Margherita,

In addition to the charts would you take a moment to mention some important financial significators in your opinion? Some people say the Acquisition in most important and some people believe a strong Fortune placement is all it takes. What in your opinion shows the person will be very wealthy?

I admit I am biased but I find the actual success of Silvio Berlusconi much easier to explain in whole sign houses.

Berlusconi's Moon is the sect light and in the angular 7th house. The Moon is also strengthened by being in its triplicity and placement in a feminine sign. Its dispositor is Jupiter is in its own domicile, in a masculine sign, below the horizon at night. Jupiter is also angular by WS. The Lot of spirit is at 4'02 Pisces and therefore its dispositor is Jupiter too.

Venus may be in detriment but it is the benefic of sect and in a feminine sign in the 3rd house. Berlusconi's Mars (Lord 3) is angular in the 1st WS house, in sect, above the horizon in a feminine sign so in hayz.

I am not getting much in terms of indications of wealth or success looking at derived houses from the Lot of Fortune. Ok the Sun falls in the angular 7th. However, Moon falls in the 12th derived house while the lot of Fortune's dispositor (Mars) falls in the 6th derived house. The place of acquisition is untenanted of planets and ruled by the strongly out of sect malefic Saturn. Jupiter falls in the 9th.

The derived houses work much better from the Lot of Spirit here. Sect light (Moon) in the 1st. A strongly in sect Mars angular in the 7th. Jupiter in the 10th derived house from spirit. Lot of fortune in the 2nd. Of course those who do not reverse the calculation method by night would have the Lot of spirit as the Lot of Fortune here.

As its a late ASC the chart looks quite different in WS houses so I have displayed it that way below:
Mark

None of the Luminaries is above the horizon, which makes a "dark" chart, that is a chart without Light (either of night or of day). Charts like this makes things unclear when we want to look for the native's life and various circumstances, like his financial situation. This example clearly shows that sometimes we have to use the Lot of Spirit instead one of Fortune, just because "dark" charts tangle matters. There are other conditions that may change the Lots, of course.

I remember someone (Mark?) wrote in this forum that when Sun is in 12th, we should to look for the Moon, and that is remarkable, because I always had the strong feeling that 12th is a nocturnal House, even though is Saturn's joy. I don't have a reason for that, I just look for the Moon any time I see Sun in 12th and if the Sun is also in a nocturnal Sign, it is more so the case to look at the Lot of Spirit as if is of Fortune. Hope I make sense, lol.

Mark wrote:
Berlusconi's Moon is the sect light and in the angular 7th house. The Moon is also strengthened by being in its triplicity and placement in a feminine sign. Its dispositor is Jupiter is in its own domicile, in a masculine sign, below the horizon at night. Jupiter is also angular by WS. The Lot of spirit is at 4'02 Pisces and therefore its dispositor is Jupiter too.

Yes, I saw that angular Jupiter by whole sign houses but I desired to be faithful to Bezza

Angular Mars (POF ruler) and L8 so angular is interesting too.
In every case where Berlusconi's money comes from is not so evident, and in a sense a "dark" chart is a perfect definition in my opinion.

margherita

Tzadde wrote:

None of the Luminaries is above the horizon, which makes a "dark" chart, that is a chart without Light (either of night or of day). Charts like this makes things unclear when we want to look for the native's life and various circumstances, like his financial situation. This example clearly shows that sometimes we have to use the Lot of Spirit instead one of Fortune, just because "dark" charts tangle matters. There are other conditions that may change the Lots, of course.

Very nice observation about the 'dark' chart. I hadn't thought of that but it makes perfect sense and seems to fit the native well. Reminds me of horary lost property aphorism that if both luminaries are below the horizon the recovery of the item is unlikely.

We also have the ASC ruler in the 2nd house under the beams of the Sun. This also indicates hiddeness or secrecy in regards financial dealings. This interpretation is stronger due to the fact that the Sun is Lord 12 here.

Tzadde wrote:

I remember someone (Mark?) wrote in this forum that when Sun is in 12th, we should to look for the Moon, and that is remarkable, because I always had the strong feeling that 12th is a nocturnal House, even though is Saturn's joy. I don't have a reason for that, I just look for the Moon any time I see Sun in 12th and if the Sun is also in a nocturnal Sign, it is more so the case to look at the Lot of Spirit as if is of Fortune. Hope I make sense, lol.

It wasn't really my idea it was the approach adopted by many hellenistic astrologers in natal analysis. They looked at the sect light but if it was in a cadent house (whole sign) they went to the other luminary as the 'predominator'. If both luminaries were cadent they went to the ASC and its ruler as predominator. From this predominator they looked at its dispositors ( domicile and bound). The use of this dispositor of the sect light (Domicile Master) was combined with the technique of calculation of the Master of the nativity (Kurios) to work out the destiny of the person. Of course I am generalising here. As with today astrologers disagreed on many points of delineation.

Moreover, Ptolemy, as was so often the case, differed from most of his predecessors and contemporaries and only used the predominator technique for calculation of the length of life (hyleg) not in natal delineation. This had a major impact on medieval astrology which dropped the use of the sect light predominator in natal analysis.

I have discussed this with a very knowledgeable forum member here who tweaks the above approach a little by still considering the luminaries as predominator in the cadent houses they joy in i.e. the Moon in the 3rd and the Sun in the 9th.

In this chart the Moon is angular in the WS 7th house so I would not dismiss it in favour of the Sun even though it is below the horizon.

Mark

If Spirit is in Pisces then he's got his sect light (Moon) and 10th from Fortune (Saturn) conjunct Spirit in an angle (the 7th). Also, both are disposed by Jupiter which is in dignity in the 10th from Spirit. Both of these placements indicate fame and fame from status. I don't think we need to look at the 12th here. One of the placements that jumped out at me is the Sun combust the MC ruler, which is Mercury indicating hidden affairs. Ruler of Fortune is in the 1st also, but in aversion. I think Spirit made him who he is...

Hi Mark,

This guy has a lot of good placements. First of all, his Fortune is in Capricorn disposed by Saturn and Saturn is in mutual reception with Mars, ruler of the 10th. His 10th from Fortune is also ruled by Mars.

I should also say Mars is exalted is conjunct Fortune. This magnifies all Fortune related activities.

His Spirit from my calculation is in Pisces and Jupiter is in an angle from Spirit, but it is in detriment. The dispositor is Mercury in mutual reception with Venus (co-present with Jupiter), which adds dignity. 2nd from Fortune is Saturn, it is out of sect but in mutual reception with Mars (ruler of Fortune). Regular 2nd house is Jupiter which is in detriment...

I think it came down to Fortune and Spirit again, plus Acquisition is in Taurus ruled by Venus in mutual reception with Mercury. Sun and Mercury are in the Acquisition. Sun combusts Mercury though so I wonder how effective it is. However there's the chariot rule that says signs are effective in their own places regardless of combustion.