Skyscript Astrology Forum

Martin wrote:

Mark: if there is any specific chapter or verse you want me to look at, I'll be happy to do so. I did find two verses of Mantre?vara's (Phalad?pik? 15.13-14) that use the words 'house cusp' (bh?vasphu?a) and 'junction' (sandhi), but again, they tell us nothing explicitly about the system used.

I was happy to see that these verses have been translated with the house references intact (Kapoor). It would be interesting to test planets at house midpoints and house sandhis to see if they really are very effective or ineffective. Does anyone here have examples from their own birth chart? I do, but I prefer staying in the background in personal matters.

Mark, a while back on this or anther thread you asked questions related to this issue. If we are looking only at planets and aren't referencing house lords, the zodiac question has little importance. I just set up my chart with Porphyry cusps, which is the house system we have to ask for using Western software. We have to visualize the bhava sandhis. My cuspal planets are vastly different with Prophyry cusps--almost the opposite from equal house cusps.

Anyone for providing examples from their own birth charts?

Therese Hamilton wrote:Martin wrote:

Mark: if there is any specific chapter or verse you want me to look at, I'll be happy to do so. I did find two verses of Mantre?vara's (Phalad?pik? 15.13-14) that use the words 'house cusp' (bh?vasphu?a) and 'junction' (sandhi), but again, they tell us nothing explicitly about the system used.

I was happy to see that these verses have been translated with the house references intact (Kapoor). It would be interesting to test planets at house midpoints and house sandhis to see if they really are very effective or ineffective. Does anyone here have examples from their own birth chart? I do, but I prefer staying in the background in personal matters.

Mark, a while back on this or anther thread you asked questions related to this issue. If we are looking only at planets and aren't referencing house lords, the zodiac question has little importance. I just set up my chart with Porphyry cusps, which is the house system we have to ask for using Western software. We have to visualize the bhava sandhis. My cuspal planets are vastly different with Prophyry cusps--almost the opposite from equal house cusps.

Anyone for providing examples from their own birth charts?

NB: I am not this person or his ghost.

KIng George VI.
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Geo ... of_England

http://www.astrojyoti.com/calculatoroflagna

Mercury lord of speech, in Bhava Sandhi of 2nd/3rd house.
Speech difficulties- stammer, died or lung problem- lung cancer.
Mercury mahadasa- 1914-1931

hard times, 9th lord father/perceptor(mercury) involved in WWI,duodenal ulcer, trained pilot, marriage to a commoner.

PD

pankajdubey wrote:[KIng George VI.
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Geo ... of_England

http://www.astrojyoti.com/calculatoroflagna

Mercury lord of speech, in Bhava Sandhi of 2nd/3rd house.
Speech difficulties- stammer, died or lung problem- lung cancer.
Mercury mahadasa- 1914-1931

A very good example for Sripati. In the future, can we note the degree of the ascendant, equal house or Sripati, bhava sandhi degree, and longitude of the planet? (Plus tropical zodiac or ayanamsa.)

Leafing through Jataka Parijata translated by V. Subramanya Shastri (Ranjan Publications, undated) I found this quote, noted by Shastri [Sastri] as a sloka taken from Sripatipaddhati:

"A planet produces the full effect of the bhava in which it is when its distance from the bhava-sandhi is equal to that of the bhavamsa (semi-bhava). When the planet has less or greater distance from a bhava-sandhi than a bhavamsa, it's effect must be ascertained by a rule-of-three process." (p. 713)

Unfortunately, there is no follow-up as to what the rule-of-three means. So we'd have to stay very close to the precise bhava-sandhi degree to test this principle. In practice I've kept the bhava sandhi orb to two degrees. So if a bhava sandhi is 7 degrees, I'd count from 5 to 9 degrees for a planet's position. It may be that the orb should be only one degree, from 6 to 8. It's probably best to stay within 1.5 degrees or less.

Therese Hamilton wrote:

pankajdubey wrote:[KIng George VI.
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Geo ... of_England

http://www.astrojyoti.com/calculatoroflagna

Mercury lord of speech, in Bhava Sandhi of 2nd/3rd house.
Speech difficulties- stammer, died or lung problem- lung cancer.
Mercury mahadasa- 1914-1931

A very good example for Sripati. In the future, can we note the degree of the ascendant, equal house or Sripati, bhava sandhi degree, and longitude of the planet? (Plus tropical zodiac or ayanamsa.)

Leafing through Jataka Parijata translated by V. Subramanya Shastri (Ranjan Publications, undated) I found this quote, noted by Shastri [Sastri] as a sloka taken from Sripatipaddhati:

"A planet produces the full effect of the bhava in which it is when its distance from the bhava-sandhi is equal to that of the bhavamsa (semi-bhava). When the planet has less or greater distance from a bhava-sandhi than a bhavamsa, it's effect must be ascertained by a rule-of-three process." (p. 713)

Unfortunately, there is no follow-up as to what the rule-of-three means. So we'd have to stay very close to the precise bhava-sandhi degree to test this principle. In practice I've kept the bhava sandhi orb to two degrees. So if a bhava sandhi is 7 degrees, I'd count from 5 to 9 degrees for a planet's position. It may be that the orb should be only one degree, from 6 to 8. It's probably best to stay within 1.5 degrees or less.

Good point.

I use this scanning technique.
Generally, I just go visually, first spot the planets which are in the mid house in a tropical placidus chart then look if that quadrant appears to have houses crowded together(shorter) then think Bhava sandhi as 10-12 degrees from cusp, if all appear equal go for 15-17 degree +cusp and adjust for the adjacent quadrant (will be bigger or smaller than the neigbouring quadrant).

Then go for the actual working out by the software.

PD

Therese Hamilton wrote:

Does anyone here have examples from their own birth chart? I do, but I prefer staying in the background in personal matters.
Anyone for providing examples from their own birth charts?

I dont mind sharing data on a one to one basis with people here on PM but I am reliuctant to share on a public forum like this. Especially, as I have a profile that gives out my name, email etc. Too many issues with identity theft these days.

Therese Hamilton wrote:

I was happy to see that these verses have been translated with the house references intact (Kapoor). It would be interesting to test planets at house midpoints and house sandhis to see if they really are very effective or ineffective.

Frankly, my motivation for creating this thread was just to get a better understanding on the use of house systems and their historical roots. I am researching a talk on house systems I plan to give next year to my Association and I realised I needed to fill out some details on the Indian outlook. Thanks to the replies I have received here I have a much better understanding of the topic.

I do feel the empirical test you are proposing comparing Sripati and Vehlow-Raman house cusps opens up quite a different issue. Maybe this topic deserves a proper thread on its own?

Therese Hamilton wrote:

Mark, a while back on this or anther thread you asked questions related to this issue. If we are looking only at planets and aren't referencing house lords, the zodiac question has little importance. I just set up my chart with Porphyry cusps, which is the house system we have to ask for using Western software. We have to visualize the bhava sandhis. My cuspal planets are vastly different with Prophyry cusps--almost the opposite from equal house cusps.

Your probably thinking of this recent thread I created:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7612

However, on that thread I was wondering how you coped with different planets ruling the signs on the Sripati and Raman house cusps and junction points. I wasn't actually, comparing the two systems as such.

Mark

Mark wrote:

I do feel the empirical test you are proposing comparing Sripati and Vehlow-Raman house cusps opens up quite a different issue. Maybe this topic deserves a proper thread on its own?

I was thinking more about such a test and realized that the perennial problem would surface: There are so many factors to consider and synthesize in reading a birth chart that it would generally be difficult to isolate one factor (bhava centers/sandhis) from the many other planetary factors. This is why I've been surprised that ANYTHING has turned up in my current study of the Sun and Ascendant in lunar mansions. http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic ... 2152#82152

Even beginning such a test would be difficult as it would be necessary to clearly define characteristics of each planet. Also in practice the most important factor in bhava position seems to be the house ruled by each planet. As for example, a chart in my collection of a man who has no children has the 5th lord (Sun) on a bhava sandhi (equal cusps). A nun (no children, of course) has Pluto on the 5th bhava center point (cusp) and 5th lord in the 8th, but not in a sandhi position.

Without the metaphysical key, we're operating more or less in the dark....little bits and pieces of reading the birth chart. That's all we have in my opinion. Event timing is a much more fruitful endeavor. Timing events may the key to what each planet actually represents in the natal chart.

Here is part of a very interesting post today (7 September) by Rohiniranjan on the Yahoo Sidereal Astrology forum:

"I learned Jyotish in India some 40+ years ago, through books, articles and discussion with practicing jyotishis, I do not recall any time when *Vehlow* was not used in India! Only, we called it "Equal House Division."

"In Jyotish for the strength determination (Bala nirnay), Sripati's unequal house division is employed. This is identical to what is known as Porphyry house-division in west, although the cusp forms the beginning of the house, KP is probably the only Indian system that uses placidus and places cusp at the beginning of house. Whether it was influenced by the available Tables of Houses (Raphael's etc) is anyone's guess."

Posted by Rohiniranjan, 7 September 2013 on Sidereal_Astrology@yahoogroups.com

Mark wrote:I have been doing a bit digging around on the net. I managed to find an online copy of Johannes Vehlow's monumental 8 volume work Lehrkurs der wissenschaftlichen Geburts-Astrologie. Vehlow discusses his proposed equal house system (which cusps in the house centre) in Volume 1 which was published in 1933. This was two years before B.V. Raman's book appeared.

Vehlow had obviously been working with this system for several years before this publication. He doesn't mention any Indian influences in proposing this house system. Instead he seems strongly influenced by the Solar cycle and Egyptian mysticism. Vehlow points out the traditional orb of the Sun is 15 ? right and 15 ? left and imagines it rising on the ASC degree.

However, Vehlow does quote an English astrologer called EH Bailey who had written two articles in the ''British Journal of Astrology" from 1928 who advocated equal houses with central cusps. Bailey himself does attribute the idea to 'Hindu astrology' and quotes the astrological text of Sripati. At present he appears to be the first astrologer to propose this system in writing.

Although, from the quote Therese gave B.V. Raman may have been using the system successfully for much longer in private.

Mark

The main influence on him appears to be the world horoscope with mid cancer rising.If the cusp is not the middle why wouldn`t the Babylonians have started it at 0 Cancer?

The main influence on him appears to be the world horoscope with mid cancer rising.If the cusp is not the middle why wouldn`t the Babylonians have started it at 0 Cancer?

Interesting point.

There does seem evidence that many ancients thought the solstice/equinox was located in the middle of signs not the beginning. But whether that is relevant to this question is debateable.

Moreover, do we know for sure the Thema Mundi has mid cancer rising? From sources like Firmicus Maternus in his Mathesis (4th century CE) it is all the planets in the Thema mundi that are at 15 degrees including the Moon in Cancer in the first house. The Sun falls in the second house in the Thema Mundi not the first. That surely, rather put any link between the rising sun on the ASC with the Thema Mundi in serious question.

Mark

Therese Hamilton wrote: "In Jyotish for the strength determination (Bala nirnay), Sripati's unequal house division is employed. This is identical to what is known as Porphyry house-division in west, although the cusp forms the beginning of the house, KP is probably the only Indian system that uses placidus and places cusp at the beginning of house. Whether it was influenced by the available Tables of Houses (Raphael's etc) is anyone's guess."

Posted by Rohiniranjan, 7 September 2013 on Sidereal_Astrology@yahoogroups.com

Hi Therese

I hope you are well !!
Concerning the house systems, the existing english translations of Parasara are both drawn mostly from the Sitaram Jha's text (as it is said in the introduction).
About this the astrologer Vinay Jha states that Santhanam (the english translator) choose Sitaram's version, which (VJ) says is not even a manuscript per se, because Santhanam disliked unequal house systems, and the Sitaram text OMITTED the whole chapter on bhavas..
This is according to Vinay Jha, so it results that the 2 translations of Parasara that are available in english DO NOT HAVE at all the chapter on Bhavas (Houses) that are in the 4 Hindi and Sanskrit Parasara manuscripts that he has seen and uses. These texts have a house system not named Sripati, but which is actually identical to Sripati though semingly anterior to Sripati. For Vinay Jha this house system is the original Indian system.
Vinay Jha's site has if I m not mistaken shown the pages of this Bhava chapter online in sanskrit.
Take care,
Pierre T

Thanks for your interesting comments, Pierre. I cannot comment myself as I don't have the texts you mentioned. Perhaps one of our Indian forum members can add additional details. It would be interesting to have a translation of the missing material on houses. The mystery of BPHS continues!

Hi again Therese

These english translations of manuscripts of Parasara are not going to come anytime soon. Who makes money translating this stuff ? Sagar or Ranjan probably arent.

Vinya Jha states that many of these are at the Oriental library fo some universities in sanskrit or Hindi. He has at his disposal several of them. And several researchers like Chandrashekhar Sharma who translated Lomasha also use these variant texts that we just dont have in english.
These are extremely important to my view, because not only the chapter on houses is missing, but there are many techniques with different calculations not available with Santhanam. Like variant ways to compute vargas, divinities for vargas, and variant calculations of the many dashas. For instance the conditional view of vimshottari is well known in those texts. For Ashottari, Kalachakra, most Jaimini Dashas similarly etc.

IN fact I'd go as far as saying that the english texts available in the west just skip the surface... Astrology for Idiots ? Unless some other European languages offer better choice which I doubt.