Martin wrote:
I think it was DeLuce who based his value on the assumption that the vernal equinox ought to have entered sidereal Pisces around the birth of Jesus...

This is correct! I just checked DeLuce. I wonder how the DeLuce ayanamsa came to be called the zeta Piscium ayanamsa?! Now I understand why that ayanamsa has such an extreme value. So this value in astrology software is probably correct if dated from the time of Christ.

According to DeLuce, there's a reason for the confusion over the ayanamsa:

"In India today there is disagreement among astrologers as to the date of zero ayanamsa. Presumably for religious and metaphysical reasons it has been hidden in order to exclude those who are not properly initiated to possess this essential key to the vital secrets of scientific astrology." Robert De Luce, Constellational Astrology (1963), p. 4.

Ah, the spiritual philosophy of the 1960s!

The great thing about being an astrologer: We're always learning something new...

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction Martin, and thank you Pankajudbey, for adding those links with detailed information. I've read through most of the first two links, so a lot has sunken in, but I think I need to stop and digest for now, otherwise I'll lose what I've just absorbed These are great resources to return to - I couldn't get the third link to open though.

Therese - I don't think I could have followed much of the information in those links had I not read your subsequent posts and your "brief history" first. If I can persuade you - please consider developing this a little and publishing it as an article that explains the issues for novices. I would certainly have a place for it here on Skyscript, though I'm sure there are many magazines and journals that would want to publish something that gives a valuable and necessary overview of the complicated issues, in a way that is so easy to understand.

Therese wrote:Is anyone in touch with Juan Revilla, astrology's astronomical expert?

Juan is a member of the forum although its been about 6 months since he last posted - I've just sent him an email and PM to let him know about this thread and your concern about a computational error in software.

Therese wrote:Deb, did you try the DeLuce option for the traditional Baghdad date and time? (July 31, 762, 2:40 p.m. or thereabouts) The DeLuce ayanamsa is often called the zeta Piscium value, but I can't test it as I don't have that option that works. I do have an Indian program I can try later, but I haven't really learned that program yet.

I did, but the positions generated seem to be way off. Here is a link to the chart so you can view it:

http://skyscript.co.uk/im/Baghdad_Deluce.gif

I wanted to make some more comments but there's too much going on family-wise at the moment, so I'll post this for now and come back later.

Thanks again for the explanations!

Deb wrote:Thanks for pointing me in the right direction Martin, and thank you Pankajudbey, for adding those links with detailed information. I've read through most of the first two links, so a lot has sunken in, but I think I need to stop and digest for now, otherwise I'll lose what I've just absorbed These are great resources to return to - I couldn't get the third link to open though.

Indeed, many thanks to Pankaj for the links. The Digital Library of India is a wonderful resource, but the Internet connection can be a bit erratic. I'm sending you the article (from Indian Journal of History of Science) by email, Deb.

These positions are for Surya Siddhanta Ayanamsha with the calculations based on the routines of Surya Siddhanta with a bit of modern fiddling.(Jagannath Hora)
Sun in sidereal Leo trine to Jupiter in Sagittarius conj the cusp of ascendant(within 5 deg).The position of heavvies like Saturn and Mars are significantly ,whereas Mercury and Venus are not that different than DeLuce version.
PD

Martin wrote:
Indeed, many thanks to Pankaj for the links. The Digital Library of India is a wonderful resource, but the Internet connection can be a bit erratic. I'm sending you the article (from Indian Journal of History of Science) by email, Deb.

Could you also send the article to me, Martin? I could not get the link to open. Use my eastwest9 email address. Thank you.

Therese Hamilton wrote:

Martin wrote:
Indeed, many thanks to Pankaj for the links. The Digital Library of India is a wonderful resource, but the Internet connection can be a bit erratic. I'm sending you the article (from Indian Journal of History of Science) by email, Deb.

Could you also send the article to me, Martin? I could not get the link to open. Use my eastwest9 email address. Thank you.

Therese
Try this one
http://www.dli.gov.in/rawdataupload/upl ... 60_257.pdf

I think it is the same

Hm. I just had a few moments to look at the IJHS article myself, and was not impressed (to put it mildly). The author's argument is a mishmash of mythological, esoteric and scientific ideas from widely different eras and contexts. I'd say this is one piece of writing that can be safely ignored.

Hi Pankajdubde

The Deluce positions are wrong - see the edited note that Therese placed in her post above:

I have since discovered that the DeLuce ayanamsa has no relationship to zeta Piscium, although someone has given it that name.

Hence the chart drawn with the Deluce ayanamsha is quite a bit off the historically reported figures, and using the Surya Siddhanta ayanamsha gives poor results too.

Therese's instruction to add 3?53 to the Krishmanurta zodiac appears to have given us the best planetary match possible and allows us to follow the principle used by astrologers of the period. My software doesn't compute this, but by tomorrow I will be able to upload an image of the chart created in Photohshop.

BTW - in regard to the alignment of the zero point with zeta Piscium around 560 AD; I'm sure Masha'allah, working for the Abbasid Caliphs who claimed descent from the prophet Muhammad, would have been affected by a posthumous desire to relate that alignment to the birth of Muhammad (around 570 AD) - in the same way that others expect to align the zero point with the vernal equinox a few years before the birth of Christ. In the series of charts he judges on great conjunctions, there is the expectation that some kind of great mutation or completion of a cycle foreshadows the birth of a great prophet.

I have a quick question I'd appreciate some feedback on. I'd like to ask some astrological software producers to incorporate this ayanamsha in future software updates - which will make it a lot easier for traditional astrologers to recreate chart examples from Mahasallah and others who used the Z?j al-Sh?h. What should it be called? Juan - in the Swiss Ephemeris article - refers to it as the "Greek-Arabic-Hindu ayanamsha" - is that a sensible term of reference, or has anyone seen it referred to by other names?

Deb wrote:I have a quick question I'd appreciate some feedback on. I'd like to ask some astrological software producers to incorporate this ayanamsha in future software updates - which will make it a lot easier for traditional astrologers to recreate chart examples from Mahasallah and others who used the Z?j al-Sh?h. What should it be called? Juan - in the Swiss Ephemeris article - refers to it as the "Greek-Arabic-Hindu ayanamsha" - is that a sensible term of reference, or has anyone seen it referred to by other names?

Curtis's Delphic Oracle has a more extensive list than I've seen elsewhere, including one called 'Sassanian'. I'm not sure if this is the same. There is also one called 'Revati'.

Martin Gansten wrote:

Deb wrote:I have a quick question I'd appreciate some feedback on. I'd like to ask some astrological software producers to incorporate this ayanamsha in future software updates - which will make it a lot easier for traditional astrologers to recreate chart examples from Mahasallah and others who used the Z?j al-Sh?h. What should it be called? Juan - in the Swiss Ephemeris article - refers to it as the "Greek-Arabic-Hindu ayanamsha" - is that a sensible term of reference, or has anyone seen it referred to by other names?

Curtis's Delphic Oracle has a more extensive list than I've seen elsewhere, including one called 'Sassanian'. I'm not sure if this is the same. There is also one called 'Revati'.

I was just about to point this out: Sassanian is the one closest to Krishnamurti +3deg53. If I remember it correctly, it is about 7 minutes out.

Hi Deb,
Jagannath hora software has the capability to choose a given fixed star as the basis for precession .
http://www.vedicastrologer.org/jh/update_7.6.htm
Zeta piscium is Revathi(Revati).there isSassanian ayanamsha as well in Jagannath Hora 7.6. The software is free.
Pankaj

Jagannath Hora 7.64

Preferences->calculations->Ayanamsha->Fixed star based custom ayanamsha->select from the drop down menu(zeta piscium).

http://i42.tinypic.com/2mwtq9c.png

Sassanian option
PD