simon - thanks for reminding me to check campions book.

down below is the chart campion has in 'the book of world horoscopes' from my 2004 4th edition copy on page 434.

michaelb - thanks for chiming in. i was hoping you would! i just got back from vancouver and will try to replicate what you have shared here. in the meantime, do you have a way of sharing this in the form of a chart? perhaps i will be able to via solar fire. i don't know..

a couple of comments on the overlap of 1939 aries ingress chart and the chart below for ww2. the most obvious connection to me seems to be the transit of saturn in close square to the ascendant degree of the aries ingress chart. the most interesting tie in using midpoints and outer planets is the exact sun/mars square 45/135 uranus in the aries ingress chart being highlighted by sept 1/39 sun at 7 virgo 47, 7 minutes past the mars/uranus midpoint at 7 virgo 40.


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I found a way to get the Sun to oppose Saturn on September 3. I don't think it is what Hieroz did. I think there is a mistake somewhere, but.

Using the table for lunations on page 94 of Holden's translation of Book 25 Astrolgia Gallica (AFA), 230 degrees (prox) is 18 days, the time from August 15 to September 3. If we progress the primordial Point or Sun at 0 Aries, in the order of the signs at slightly more than 230 degrees we will arrive at 1 Scorpio, the point opposite Saturn in the Aug 15 lunation.

I am not saying this was his intent or that this is necessarily valid. Hieroz could have simply made a mistake and it got into print. This portion of the prediction was, by Hieroz admission, not worked out until after the events of Sept 1 1939.

Or perhaps this is not a mistake and it is Morin's intent and explained in the round about way he explains things, and I just missed it. I tend to doubt that though.

Hi
James, Happy New Year. Unfortunately no way for me to show a chart for the Primary aspects that is correct. About all you can do is, after setting up the Aries chart for 1939 run a Converse Solar Arc so that planets are moved against the order of the signs.

That is, a planet in 10H is moved to a planet in 8H and so on. This is the Primary movement but is not correct since SArc moves everything in uniform motion not individually. Still, it may put Sun and Moon opposite Saturn but again not in exact aspect and this is not correct.

Also, the year for Solar Arc requires adding for say Sun opposite Saturn, see my post giving a 3 Sept. date that came to 163 degree days, add 163 Years to 1939 or to year 2102.

Finally, if not clear, the dates I listed, first two dates aspects using PDs fell out exact date listed by Hieroz. The Sept 11 date fell out day after or Sept 12. So no doubt he was using Primary Formulae. Happy New Year to All, Michaelb

thanks michaelb - happy new year to you as well.

i am unable to replicate it using morinus software following the primary direction keys you provide. i need to learn how to use the delphi oracle software which i also have, but haven't learned how to use.

in solar fire i am able to do converse transits which are a good reflection on the position of the sun to an opposition of saturn which is shown in toms post as sept 3rd. taking this approach i get sun opp saturn aug 28th though.. all the rest of the data is useless, but this replicates the sun opposite saturn based on the sun going in the opposite direction to the zodiac signs.

one way i am thinking about these relationships described in toms post down below are the degree difference between the planets or points in the examples. i know traditional pd's aren't done this way, but then these aren't ordinary primary directions either as one would need to have many years elapse before sun reached an opposition to saturn in the traditional method used for pd's.. clearly something else is at work which we are trying to figure out.

degree difference of midheaven to mars - 98 degree 16'
sun to saturn - 18 degree 20'
moon to saturn - 13 degree 17'

if you take 90 off the m/mars difference we are left with 8 degree 16'. now the difference between these positions in terms of degrees becomes similar with midheaven to mars the shortest distance and sun to saturn the longest which is the reverse of the positions listed below in terms of the dates given for when the direction is exact according to hieroz.
if however the movement is in the opposite direction of the zodiac, then what is the farthest distance in degrees will happen sooner then the ones in closer distance along the zodiac. in other words the sun opposite saturn will hit first followed by moon to saturn followed by mc to mars..

in other words if we are progressing or directing the sun at approx 1 degree per day in a counter clockwise direction ( reverse of the direction of the zodiac signs) with the sun moving from aries into pisces and etc etc. aug 28th sun will be in opposition to saturn.. treating the moon as we would the sun, moon will roughly reach an opposition to saturn 5 days later( degree difference from sun to moon is 5). mars would move to an opposition to itself in approx 1/2 year time or at about sept 21st 1939, but we need to shorten this approx 8 1/2 days to reflect the square of mars to MC - sept 13th being about the date which is close to the sept 11th date heiroz provides..

this seems to be the rough formula heiroz is utilizing to get these dates listed below.. he is essentially moving the chart approx 1 degree per day in reverse direction to the zodiac sign positions. (360 degrees = 365 days).

thanks michael for giving your viewpoint. it motivated me to open up morinus and then to consider this how i had been previously -degree differences and making sense of heiroz in the way that i have.. note the difference in days between the sun opp saturn to moon opp saturn is 5 days which reflects the 5 degree difference between sun and moon in the aries ingress chart.. the degree for a day formula seems as though it is being applied here.

Tom wrote:

Sun opposite Saturn, about the 3rd of September.
Moon opposite Saturn around the 8th of September
MC Square Mars on 11 September

in case anyone missed it in the detailed winding post i made here on dec 29th, the way heiroz got the data(directions) in toms quote below was via directing the aries ingress chart 1 degree per day in counterclockwise motion. in other words he was using a solar arc direction type hybrid. instead of 1 degree = 1 year, it was 1 degree = 1 day while making 365 days into 360 degrees.

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Tom wrote:

Sun opposite Saturn, about the 3rd of September.
Moon opposite Saturn around the 8th of September
MC Square Mars on 11 September