cor scorpii wrote:Well, this does clarify(at least some) of the issues concerning Animodar. Thanks,Dr.H

However, there's still this question of whether to take the Almuten of the syzygy degree or just its domicile ruler.Lilly, as it is well known, had the same kind of problem since he mentions Almuten but takes the ruler instead.
But then, if we follow Ptolemy, it seem that he suggests pretty clearly we should take the Almuten of the syzygy degree into consideration...and its position in the NATAL chart.

It remains to be seen and tested. Thank you guys for your time and help

Well you already know Ptolemy method
http://www.sacred-texts.com/astro/ptb/ptb38.htm

and I agree with you, I was taught to take its position in the natal chart,
margherita

As part of my practice was helping women who had difficulty in conception I have extensively studied the pre-natal epoch methods.

I have found the pre-natal epoch method described above - where the Moon in the natal chart is the Ascendant in the conception chart and the Ascendant in the conception chart is the Moon in the natal chart - extremely accurate!

However, there are matters to be considered before making judgment.

1. Was the person conceived at the same place as they were born? If they were not adjustments in calculation must be made.

2. And by far the most important is whether or not the person had an entirely natural birth or complications during birth.

There is a natural cycle between conception and birth. If you are conceived on a specific day and time, then in the natural flow of things you will be born on a specific day at a specific time. These days and times perfectly fit in with the genetic flow of the family line.

If there is any medical 'assistance' i.e. cesarean, induction, forceps, mother being drugged unconscious, etc., then these rectification techniques cannot possibly work. Cesarean is the worst because the infant is often born completely out of their natural cycle. Induction is the second worst for the same reason, though children born through induction try their best to at least get born at a time that is a least somewhat compatible with that of their conception and the genetic flow of the family line. The other forms of interference can sometimes be allowed for.

The present consistent interference with this natural flow through medical processes was not possible when these techniques were derived and therefore couldn't be considered.

So techniques like the Animodar of Ptomely; Triune of Hermes; Signs, Planets and Terms, for determining the actual time of birth can only be applied if the person had a fully natural birth.

To date (after 40 years of professional astrology) I have found that if the person was a fully natural birth with no complications, the Pre-natal Epoch was accurate on every chart.

I have only recently discovered the Animodar of Ptomely and need to both work with and understand the concept behind this technique before I can make any comment.

If there was medical interference at the time of birth, then rectification using events seems to be the only option left.

Alice

Alice McDermott wrote:As part of my practice was helping women who had difficulty in conception I have extensively studied the pre-natal epoch methods.

I have found the pre-natal epoch method described above - where the Moon in the natal chart is the Ascendant in the conception chart and the Ascendant in the conception chart is the Moon in the natal chart - extremely accurate!



Alice

If you accept the Trutine of Hermes, you should use an orb, because mathematically, for a chart with well authenticated birth time, it could not be forced to fit into the ancient mutually dependent conditions.
Baldur Ebertin's birth time, as an example, was recorded carefully by his father to 7.12 MET, and the 7 events that I have for him prove that this is an accurate time, maybe 10 seconds earlier. I can't find any epoch that will fit the Trutine of Hermes.
The question is which orb you allow for the Moon in the epoch?

Isaac Starkman wrote:

Alice McDermott wrote:As part of my practice was helping women who had difficulty in conception I have extensively studied the pre-natal epoch methods.

I have found the pre-natal epoch method described above - where the Moon in the natal chart is the Ascendant in the conception chart and the Ascendant in the conception chart is the Moon in the natal chart - extremely accurate!



Alice

If you accept the Trutine of Hermes, you should use an orb, because mathematically, for a chart with well authenticated birth time, it could not be forced to fit into the ancient mutually dependent conditions.
Baldur Ebertin's birth time, as an example, was recorded carefully by his father to 7.12 MET, and the 7 events that I have for him prove that this is an accurate time, maybe 10 seconds earlier. I can't find any epoch that will fit the Trutine of Hermes.
The question is which orb you allow for the Moon in the epoch?

A related question for both of you: do you use topocentric (parallax corrected) positions?

- Ed

I once discussed with Alexander Marr about the parallax, he said that there is no need to use it.

OK, thanks.

Hello.

Deb wrote:Animodar Method
You base this method on the degree of the previous syzygy. If it was a new Moon, you take the degree of the New Moon, if it was a full Moon you take the degree of the luminary that was above the earth.

What to do if neither luminary was above the earth?

In Trutine of Hermes method with table by Lilly, I came up with August 11th (which is more or less where it was supposed to be), and the moon is in correct sign (Saggitarius). And actually quite close to the degree where my ascendant supposely is (about 6 degrees less).

I'll do some more checking when I have time.

Petr

P.s. Also, this is probably my first post. Hello everyone.

What to do if neither luminary was above the earth?

If the centre of the Sun is exactly aligned to the ascendant with the Moon on the desc, consider the chart as diurnal and go with that. Or if the Sun is exactly setting with the Moon rising, consider it nocturnal and go with the Moon. In all other cases, at a full Moon, one of the lights will be above the horizon with the other below it.

Um, even Ptolemy says that there are cases when there are no luminaries above the horison. (Hmm, I can't seem to find the passage that says it, but I've read it a couple of days ago. Will look some more).

In my case the sunset was at about 20:00 on the day previous, and the moon rise is about at 04:00 am or something like that.

And I was born some half an hour past midnight (give or take couple of minutes).

Sun is near IC, and moon is somewhere in the end of huge 1st house, about a sign away from Asc. (Asc - end of Saggittarius, Moon in the middle of Aqu).

I think we are talking at cross-purposes. The quote you reproduced refers to the previous syzygy, which for you, with a waning Moon, was the previous full Moon - it is the degree of this that you use, referring to the luminary above the horizon (since the Sun and Moon are exactly 180 apart, one will be above the horizon and on will be below, unless both are exactly on it).

Deb

I am talking about another passage, but I'll have to finish reading Tetrabiblos all the way (which may take me a couple of months). I'll make a note to find the passage in question.
Im sorry that I couldn't find the passage in question in the first place. Thats bad sport on my part.

Hello Deborah,

I have been taking up this issue and have posted in astro.com. As I have also posted several charts, it might be easy, if you are interested, to go and check there: http://forum.astro.com/cgi/forum.cgi?num=1320240310/20

Anyhow, for your easy reference, here's the Method which I myself find very good indeed, and is the same as you mention :

Truthin of Hermes:

1. AC/DC of the NEWBORN = Moon at conception
2. AC/DC of the MOTHER = Moon at conception
3. Radix Moon of the NEWBORN = AC/DC of conception chart


The Trutina Hermetis method of rectification is based on the assumption that the positions of the Ascendant and the Moon in the conception chart and the birth chart are interconnected by a rule: the Moon at birth is on the horizon axis of the conception horoscope, and the Moon at conception is located on the horizontal axis of the radix.
In classical form the Trutina Hermetis says:

? When the radix Moon is waxing Moon and above the horizon, the period of pregnancy was less than 273 days, and the Moon in the prenatal epoch chart is conjunct the Ascendant of the radix.

? When the radix Moon is waning Moon and above horizon, the pregnancy was more than 273 days, and the prenatal Moon has the same coordinate as the Descendant of the radix.

? When the radix Moon is under the horizon and waxing, pregnancy was more than 273 days, and prenatal Moon incorporates the radix Ascendant.

? When the radix Moon is under the horizon and waning, pregnancy last less than 273 days, and the prenatal Moon conjoins the Descendant of the radix."

On the birth chart of the child, see where the moon is. According to its position, example:

AC 20? Scorpio

Moon 20? Cap

Difference: 60?

If waxing moon at birth, you divide 60:12 = 5
The baby was 5 days later that alfa day 273

The usual range is from 258 - 273 - 288

Check the various options above and off you go