Skyscript Astrology Forum

Stefan, a problem I see with this war chart is that Venus (peace) is near the ascendant, and Mars doesn't closely aspect either the Ascendant or MC. So the usual angularity rules don't apply. I haven't studied war charts, so this is only my quick comment about the chart.

It would seem that Saturn and Ketu in Aries are more descriptive of the event as they are in close aspect to the ascendant. (Saturn as 7th lord) Oh...Saturn and Mars are in mutual reception! So Saturn in partile aspect to the ascendant brings the energy of Mars to the forefront. That is why Mars is so important in the chart, aside from its entry into Capricorn. When sidereal malefics are exalted, they're not necessarily "good," only powerful.

Therese

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Yes - that Mutual reception was a great insight. I didn't see it...

But I agree that the chart seems bleek at the first sight with venus at the ascendant.

Personally I Think the British official declaration of war to germany is much more telling ! That Grand cross is really malicious !




And comparing the chart to Hitler's is fascinating....

(War chart to the left in Fagan-Allen and Hitlers in krishnamurti,
not intentionally. But I use krishnamurti or Lahiri with personal charts).


[/quote]At 11 O'clock (am) British PM, Neville Chamberlain publicly delivered his Ultimatum Speech
" Quote:

Note: Included in the speech: "...This morning, the British Ambassador in Berlin handed the German Government a final note, stating that unless we heard from them by 11 O'clock that they were prepared at once to withdraw their troops from Poland a state of war would exist between us. I have to tell you now that no such undertaking has been received and that consequently this country is at war with Germany..."

These charts make a very interesting comparison, but they should be calculated with the same ayanamsa for a precise degree comparison.

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So the charts of the Capricorn Ingress and Cancer Ingress chart for London 1939 the year of getting into the World war II is posted now. No angular planets in a strong way. But there is other connections to the angles that are much interesting. And since the war is worldwide and perhaps most telling is to look at the planetary aspects for the Ingress charts for that year
which was reflecting worldwide war and conflicts at that time in history.
The thread about this should not feel complete without incuding them.

In the eminent book "Mundane astrology" by Campion and Baigent which is seen as a standard reference work I Think. There is a reference to the Sidereal Cancer ingress chart (chart to the right below).

"If one chart will convince us of the sidereal zodiac and that the Fagan-Bradley ayanamsa is correct, then the Can-Solar Ingress for London on July 17 1939 is it!"
"Because the interplanetary aspects of any mundane charts are common to every place in the world, the all-important factor becomes the angles. Any planet which is 1-2 degrees of an angle is likely to play a marked role in the period ahead for an ingress chart. Equally, any body configuring the AS/MC midpoint by -0-, 45, 90, 135, or 180 within an orb of 2 degrees should be carefully noted. This often neglected point is of the greatest importance in all charts since it links together both angles and therefore gives a double intensity to the planetary bodies involved."

The midpoint of AS/MC is 6'57' Cancer.
The malicious planetary pattern involving Mars, Saturn,Moon pluto is affecting this point.

The partile Moon mars Saturn pluto aspects influencing the whole World is strong...



Then when looking at the Capricorn Ingress 14 jan 1939 some similarities are present.
A Close Moon Mars Connection. Mars is squaring the AS/MC midpoint.
Mars-45-ASC Mars-135-MC
In declination Mars // Node Pluto//MC.



Stefan

Stefan quoted:

"If one chart will convince us of the sidereal zodiac and that the Fagan-Bradley ayanamsa is correct, then the Can-Solar Ingress for London on July 17 1939 is it!"
"Because the interplanetary aspects of any mundane charts are common to every place in the world, the all-important factor becomes the angles. Any planet which is 1-2 degrees of an angle is likely to play a marked role in the period ahead for an ingress chart. Equally, any body configuring the AS/MC midpoint by -0-, 45, 90, 135, or 180 within an orb of 2 degrees should be carefully noted. This often neglected point is of the greatest importance in all charts since it links together both angles and therefore gives a double intensity to the planetary bodies involved."

Stefan, where did you find this quote, and who are you quoting? Please give the book, author and page number.

Thanks,
Therese

HURRICANE PATRICIA MAKES LANDFALL IN MEXICO

Hurricane Patricia, the strongest hurricane ever recorded in the Western Hemisphere, made landfall in the Mexican state of Jalisco as a Category 5 storm. The storm has caused landslides and flooding, but no deaths or major damage have been reported. The Krishnamurti and Fagan-Allen Libra Ingress charts here are set for Manzanillo, the nearest major city. Comments on the charts are below.
These charts indicate that it's not time just yet to jump on the Fagan-Allen bandwagon. In the Krishnamurti Libra Ingress the Moon near the ascendant is in partile square to the M.C. squared by Mars and Jupiter within two degrees of the M.C. Uranus in Pisces is trine the Moon with a 2 degree orb.

The Fagan-Allen Ingress has Jupiter and Mars closer to the M.C. by a degree, but the Moon is out of the picture. The Venus-Neptune opposition is closer in degree in the Krishnamurti chart.

It's only by comparing many charts for events that one ayanamsa or the other might show the greatest promise for catastrophic events. It's understandable that an astrologer who uses either of these two ayanamsas wouldn't bother to look at a chart using another ayanamsa. But a comparison is very necessary in order to find the final answer.

EDIT: 24 October 2015
On the Solunars site Jim Eshelman has this to say about the Fagan-Allen Hurricane Patricia charts. Note especially his comment about the Libra ingress chart above which he calls the Libsolar. (As far as I know astrologers of the Fagan school never bother to check the Krishnamurti charts. Also little or no attention is given to trine aspects.)

These charts look more like a minor hurricane at best, not a "worst ever."
The Libsolar is tepid and essentially irrelevant. I'd have felt better if it were fully dormant.

Jim Eshelman on Solunars

1959 MEXICO HURRICANE

Here is another Hurricane for the same location in 1959. This is the first Category 5 Pacific hurricane ever to hit Mexico: 1,800 fatalities, destroyed a fourth of the homes in Jalisco, winds 160 mph, more than $280 million in damage (1959 dollars). Landfall: October 28., 1959, Manzanillo, Mexico. (Comments on charts below)
Now we see in this Fagan-Allen Libra Ingress that the Moon is at the MC opposed by Mercury (which is conjunct Neptune) and with a close trine from Venus. However in the Krishnamurti Ingress Mercury (conjunct Neptune) is on the IC, and the elevated Moon is at the point of a Yod from Rahu and Jupiter. (Though Rahu is said to cast only the trine aspect.) Uranus is closer to the ascendant in the Krishnamurti chart, and Mars opposes the Moon.

Saturn is also trine the Kirshnamurti Moon. Though trines are supposed to be benefic in western astrology, I've found they commonly occur in catastrophic ingress charts. This may be due to the close relationship of the trine aspect in Jyotish due to the lunar mansions (nakshatras) in trine having the same ruling Vimshottari planet. So they have a close affinity.

It may be that a close study of the position and aspects of the Moon in ingress charts might be the key to the most accurate ayanamsa to use for these charts. The nature of planets aspecting the Moon would have to be carefully considered and should suit the type of mundane event being studied.

In these charts the Krishnamurti Moon receives the trine from Saturn, and the opposition from Mars. The Moon is also at the point of a Yod from Jupiter/Rahu. In the Fagan-Allen chart the Moon receives the opposition from Mercury and the trine from Venus. For planetary aspects it may be best to keep the orb to 4 degrees or less in ingress charts. Angular planets may need a bit more leeway.

SEPTEMBER 1900 GALVESTON TEXAS HURRICANE

A Galveston Daily News reporter in 1900 said the story of the Sept. 8, 1900, hurricane could never truly be written. For many, no words could ever be spoken again about the deadly hurricane that reshaped the Gulf Coast forever. More than 6,000 men, women and children lost their lives during the Great Storm. The hurricane was rated as a Category 4.
This third Hurricane to remember also has an angular Krishnamurti Moon in Aries in partile trine to Saturn in Sagittarius (both in Ketu's mansions). Neptune is also in partile sextile to the Moon which means that the Moon collects the energy of the Saturn-Neptune opposition. Mars is prominent due to a partile trine to the ascendant.

The Fagan-Allen angular Moon has moved out of orb from Saturn and is in sextile to Venus in Gemini. Mars does not make a close aspect to either the ascendant or M.C. in the Fagan-Allen chart. The Leo solar ingress is the closest ingress to the September 8-9 class 4 hurricane.

In these three Krishnamurti Ingress hurricane charts the Moon is in the Gauquelin plus zones:
Patricia: just below the ascendant
1900 Mexico: to the west of the MC. and Nonagesimal.
Galveston: just beneath the 7th cusp

It seems there has to be one or more angular planets to collect the necessary planetary aspects for key events in ingress charts. For catastrophic events the malefic planets don't have to be angular as long as they aspect an angle or a planet near an angle.

HAIPHONG, VIETNAM CYCLONE

The Haiphong cyclone, (Oct. 8, 1881) was one of most catastrophic natural disasters in history and the third deadliest tropical cyclone ever recorded. The cyclone smashed into the Gulf of Tonkin, setting off tidal waves that flooded the city of Haiphong in northeastern Vietnam, caused widespread destruction, and killed an estimated 300,000 inhabitants. (Comments on the Krishnamurti and Fagan-Allen Virgo Ingress charts are below.)
Here again the angles and planets near the angles of the Krishnamurti chart collect the energies of planets that at first glance seem to be unimportant. Neptune in the degree of the MC has the conjunction of Saturn and the two degree trine of Uranus. The ascendant degree receives the sextile of the Moon (with Ketu) and the square of Neptune. The nodes influence the Moon, which is mainly important because the Moon aspects the ascendant and Venus. (The Nodes almost always seem to play a part in events that influences the masses.)

Why is Venus on the ascendant? Aside from the fact that Venus has to do with water, it disposits the Moon with Ketu (and Pluto and Jupiter), thus bringing their influence to an angle. Venus is in mutual reception with the Moon. This appears to be a benefic combination, but both the Moon and Venus receive aspects from malefics. (If we consider Neptune and Uranus as keynotes for the typhoon.)

Nevertheless, Venus on the ascendant of a catastrophic chart raises questions and has to be considered in relation to other planets. In Jyotish Venus is both a malefic and maraka (death inflicting planet) for a Cancer ascendant. Malefic Rahu trines Venus from the 5th house.

The close aspects to the angles are lost in the Fagan-Allen Ingress chart. The Moon is with Mars, but doesn't touch the angles. Neptune is three degrees from the MC, which is acceptable, but the trine from Uranus is five degrees from the MC. In the Fagan-Allen chart Venus has lost its connection to the Moon as the Moon has progressed into Gemini.

As in the three hurricane charts, this devastating typhoon chart makes a plausible case for the Krishnamurti ayanamsa based on the closeness of planets and aspects to the chart angles. (The Jyotish lunar mansions that hold the various key planets are interesting, but I didn't want these posts to be too long.)

Therese Hamilton wrote:Stefan quoted:

"If one chart will convince us of the sidereal zodiac and that the Fagan-Bradley ayanamsa is correct, then the Can-Solar Ingress for London on July 17 1939 is it!"
"Because the interplanetary aspects of any mundane charts are common to every place in the world, the all-important factor becomes the angles. Any planet which is 1-2 degrees of an angle is likely to play a marked role in the period ahead for an ingress chart. Equally, any body configuring the AS/MC midpoint by -0-, 45, 90, 135, or 180 within an orb of 2 degrees should be carefully noted. This often neglected point is of the greatest importance in all charts since it links together both angles and therefore gives a double intensity to the planetary bodies involved."

Stefan, where did you find this quote, and who are you quoting? Please give the book, author and page number.

Thanks,
Therese

Hi Therese,

I have the book that Stefan quoted from. Its ''Mundane Astrology'' by Baigent, Campion and Harvey, which is in my opinion the best book on
the subject. To be more precise the quote is on page 401 under the chapter ''The Astrology of War and Peace''.

Carl

Therese,

Have you tried using the previous Lunar Cardinal ingresses in those Hurricane/Cyclone dates?

Carl

Carl wrote:

I have the book that Stefan quoted from. Its ''Mundane Astrology'' by Baigent, Campion and Harvey, which is in my opinion the best book on the subject. To be more precise the quote is on page 401 under the chapter ''The Astrology of War and Peace''.

Thank you, Carl. I've been criticized on this forum for emphasizing the need for education for astrologers, but one thing we learn as we go on in school is to give full references for quotations. Stefan's quote is from a chapter by Charles Harvey ("Part 2, The Cyclical Background"), Mundane Astrology: An Introduction to the Astrology of Nations and Groups, (Baigent, Campion and Harvey), Thorsons, 1984 with reprints. I knew that quote had to belong to a specific person, and was very curious who that person was.

Mundane Astrology was published when only the Fagan-Allen ayanamsa was well known in western countries. This is why we see mention of that ayanamsa in books published before the so-called "Vedic" astrological foray into the west in the early 1990s (which began mainly in California, USA). Then it became known that other ayanamsas existed, imported from India.

Have you tried using the previous Lunar Cardinal ingresses in those Hurricane/Cyclone dates?

No, for the Moon and weather I'd be much more likely to check New Moon charts. I just don't see any reason to use sidereal cardinal ingresses for a three month period or the lunar cardinal ingresses for a month as the sidereal zodiac has no reference to solstices and equinoxes. (But it never hurts to research different types of charts.)

Therese