Patrick, I read the conversation, and so far as I can determine, whoever obtained Hillary Rodham's birth certificate broke the law if it was the same then as it is today.

This doesn't mean the to-be-revealed chart is incorrect, but if the law was broken to obtain it, this doesn't reflect well on astrologers.

There seemed to be another person besides Zayin who claimed to have gained the 2:18 time from records. But the following just muddies the waters as it refutes Cohen's claim of 2:08 being the actual time given by records (posted earlier by Mark -"However, I corresponded with Zayin Cohen a few weeks ago. Zayin Cohen then claimed the time he had actually found was 02.08am not 02.18am.".
***********************************
"re: Hillary Rodham Clinton
? Reply #42 - on: 04.02.2005 at 12:30 [UT] ?
reply by Astrodatabank Web User Cassandra

"Dawn: ADB does not have the correct birth time for her - so your analysis is incorrect. She has 14 Virgo rising based upon information from a contact in Illinois public records department."
***********************************
re: Hillary Rodham Clinton
? Reply #46 - on: 05.02.2005 at 12:30 [UT] ?
reply by Astrodatabank Web User Cassandra

"No, Wayne Penner, Cassandra is Cassandra. I have relatives in Chicago and one of them has a contact in Vital Records who I asked to pull the information for me. I did not feel that what was reflected here was correct. For obvious reasons, the person prefers to remain anonymous, but the information is correct.

Frankly, I'm surprised that someone else came up with the same data that I did."
**********************************
re: Hillary Rodham Clinton
? Reply #53 - on: 05.02.2005 at 12:30 [UT] ?
reply by Astrodatabank Web User Cassandra

"Also, there had been a post by Zayin to the same effect as mine just prior to yours and I wanted to support his information with what I had.

Paula Gassman, I doubt I will be able to secure any more certifiable documentation - that my contact agreed to provide any information at all was pushing it - I've been working on this for a very long time and the time of 2:18AM was all I could get."

SGFoxe wrote:There was a couple, a mother and son pair a tom & thelma , who mined cook county birth data which is why those laws were instated ... however, i did acquire richard m daley's birth certificate through a request in the old Mercury Hour.

I met Thelma and Tom in the 70's when they lived in Rockford for a short time. Tom was an adopted son. It was Thelma who taught me how to calculate risings and settings by hand, during which process I spotted a math shortcut that saves several steps.

They were avid data searchers.

Regarding the release of the news letter with Penfield's birth data and source for HRC on the 3rd the transiting Saturn/Pluto midpoint will be on Zayin's secondary progressed IC (Q2 Mean Quotidian angles) for his place of birth on that day - bad news for 2:08? 2:18? Both?!

If it is illegal having the BC in my opinion it would be also illegal to publish "Yes, I have it (Mossad, Attorny:???: ) but I can't show the document, that would be illegal".
Or maybe the laws in his country are very different to Germany.

I don't know whether the state of Illinois would actually prosecute someone who obtains a birth certificate under false pretenses, but I did a little sleuthing and believe it would be a Class 4 Felony, which can carry some stiff punishments, depending upon what the judge would decide at sentencing.

The website I posted above for the Illinois Department of Public Health, Office of Vital Records was clear that their birth certificates are not public records. This is elaborated upon in the law on the state law vital statistics.

Illinois state laws are on line. I looked up the one on vital records.
http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/il ... &ChapAct=4
The restrictions on personal access are in secs. 24 and 25.

Only the named individual or a child's parent or guardian can apply for a birth certificate copy today according to the website. The law itself allows exceptions for valid uses, such as those required for public health measures, a court order, inheritance rights, or genealogical research on births older than 75 years. Sec. 25 (11) specifies that only the kinds of applicants specifically named in the act may have access to birth certificates.

The laws may have been different decades ago. Someone would have to contact the Department to find out when Clinton's alleged birth certificate was obtained; and even then, I don't know if birth times were recorded in 1947.

Sec. 24 (1) reads:

It is unlawful for any custodian [employee] to permit inspection of, or to disclose information contained in, vital records, or to copy or permit to be copied, all or part of any such record except as authorized by this Act or regulations adopted pursuant thereto.

This doesn't seem like an opening for astrology, as most of the itemized acceptable purposes are for determining paternity, pensions, exposure to toxic materials, and things of this nature.

And here's the kicker, in sec. 27:

(f) Any person who willfully and knowingly furnishes a certificate of birth, or certified copy of a record of birth with the intention that it be used by a person or persons other than those recited in Section 25(4) of this Act is guilty of a Class 4 felony.

According to this site, conviction of a Class 4 Felony can be punished by 1-3 years in jail, up to 30 months probation, or a fine of up to $25,000.

https://www.reference.com/government-po ... 4b327aa370#

Moreover, nowhere in the linked materials is it mentioned that an Illinois birth certificate would include the time of birth.

A quick update: I've been trying to find out when the Illinois Vital Records Act was passed; as I think this has bearing on the integrity of claims to have HRC's birth time. No luck: hey, I'm not a legal scholar. But I did find this amendment from 2000 which tightens and clarifies who may access birth certificates. http://www.nfimr.org/site/assets/docs/IL.pdf

There still is no way that an astrological use could be justified. So a lot hinges on exactly when the purloined (??) birth time information was obtained.

There have been some other amendments to the law that do not concern astrology.

So in about 6 years a genealogist may be able to solve the mystery assuming birth times are recorded on Illinois birth certificates. If memory serves, Illinois required birth times to be recorded in standard time (I think Pennsylvania had a similar law for a time)? Not sure when this law went into effect if this was indeed the case.

zoidsoft wrote:So in about 6 years a genealogist may be able to solve the mystery assuming birth times are recorded on Illinois birth certificates. If memory serves, Illinois required birth times to be recorded in standard time (I think Pennsylvania had a similar law for a time)? Not sure when this law went into effect if this was indeed the case.

Curtis, if you Google Illinois Daylight Savings Time for a given birth year, hopefully a site will come up indicating when it went on and off. I found this for 1947, Clinton's birth year.

Mark:

Re: my reading of the Illinois Vital Records Act and its year 2000 amendments, I wonder if Marc Penfield has considered that his publicizing his conversation on how he obtained the 2:18 am birth time via YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ffCemlJ7V0, and the ISAR meeting could get the Vital Records office clerk fired if word got back to her supervisors about what she had done.

It's one thing for him to break the law, but another thing for a state employee to do so.

Conversely, he has no way to verify whether or not she misled him or was truthful with him.

2 October 2016, 11:00 PM California time

I just watched an ISAR video in which Ray Merriman and Shelley Ackerman interviewed Marc Penfield regarding Hillary Clinton's birth time. The alleged time is 2:18 AM. This information was obtained via a phone conversation with a person in a records office, but the time was not actually stated by the person in that office. According to Marc, a "reporter's technique" was used in which no answer is given by the records office if a fact stated by a reporter is correct. The office can say "no" if a fact is incorrect. Marc asked about different birth times, and no reply was given for the 2:18 AM time. Anyone can watch the video and come to their own conclusions about this time and how it was obtained.

The text copy of Marc's statement may be in the ISAR newsletter which hasn't arrived in my email box yet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ffCemlJ7V0 (13 minutes)

With the predictive methods I use, particularly the Solar Return and election Ennead (these are the same chart for Hillary Clinton), her victory seems obvious for the 8:01 PM time. I wouldn't know what to make of this chart for the 2:18 time. In some ways this 2016 solar return looks bad enough to possibly suggest that Hillary wouldn't even finish out the solar return year.

I remain very puzzled.

waybread wrote:Curtis, if you Google Illinois Daylight Savings Time for a given birth year, hopefully a site will come up indicating when it went on and off. I found this for 1947, Clinton's birth year.

I was referring specifically to a regulation that required standard time recordings (regardless of whether daylight savings was in effect). When I wrote access to the Olson TZ database in 2010 (for the Terran Atlas), I was finding that just knowing the time standard wasn't enough, you also had to know whether the area followed the official rules or not which more frequently than you would expect, was not the case. For instance in my area there's a large population of Amish farmers who pay no attention to daylight savings time.

Patrick Watson wrote:You can read the conversation here which I've captured with screenshots, to prove that I haven't edited anything: http://www.patrickwatsonastrologer.com/ ... sation.jpg

What do you think?

I think the evidence shows that Patrick acted very appropriately and Zayin Cohen has not. With regards to the Marc Penn time, it's interesting but I'm pretty sure Lois Rodden would turn in her grave if this was rated anything other than dirty data - without any way to verify the information I don't think it should carry more weight than any of the other reported times.