Skyscript Astrology Forum

We can find, in the references posted by Eddy, above (thanks fo them!!) many similarities to the more metaphysically expressed concepts in parts of Blavatsky's "Secret Doctrine".
Regarding the apparent disparity of precessional ages mentioned by MarckC regarding Steiner's concepts, this is the reason:
-remember Steiner was not an astrologer; he was building a philosphical/metaphysical model (anthroposophy)
-Steiner believed that the actual influence of any constellational epoch would only begin to manifest by the time equivalent to the middle of that constellation (15 degrees), and then would continue operative (with some degree of "mixing") deep into the next constellational epoch. Steiner believed that the Aries constellational period began (Aries precessed to vernal point) in 1800 BC, and "physically" (by precession) ended around 300 AD-however, the Arian epoch effects didn't begin to "kick-in" until the middle of the Aries constellational time (approx. 700 BC) and this Ariian epochal age continued well after the "physical end" of the Aries constellation-period (300 AD)-at which time the constellation of Pisces precessed to the vernal point-because the Piscean Age would not "kick-in" until the middle of that constellation (which accounts for Steiner's dating of 1473 AD-he meant that it was then that the Piscean Age "began" vis a vis an effective influence)
-Now these are Steiner's (and Anthroposophy's) concepts relating to precession-initiated epochs. In addition to this, as I mentioned earlier, Steiner also entertained the Hindu-originated concept of the "Yugas", these latter by no means being directly related to the precession/constellation-initiated "astrological" epochs. It is interesting to me that there are significant indications in Vedic astrology (jyotish), which is based upon starry constellations (and of course the planets)-to the effect that the most powerful point of any (constellational) sign is in the middle, ie, 15 degrees, and continues potent onward through the end of the sign: it is the first half of the (constellation) sign which is regarded as "weak" (relative to placement of a planet in that part of the sign). This reminds me of Steiner's view relative to "when" the precessed constellation's "effects" start to come into prominence and its "epoch" or "age" finally kicks-in.

(Note: I have found much of interest in anthroposophy-particularly the field of anthroposophical medicine-however, I am not an anthroposophist nor am I an advocate of Steiner's astrological concepts regarding "ages" and "epochs")

So far the only references to ages defined by precession are religious and philosophical texts. The question was when was the first astrological text. That infers without saying it that an astrologer is presenting the idea. Now I have a lot of astrological texts - probably some no one else has. In the hellenistic period I can't find a single astrological text that refers to "ages" as indicated by the precession of the equinoxes. Neither do I find any reference in the medieval astrological texts. I therefore conclude that while there may undoubtedly have been a religion or philosophy that advocated such a doctrine - it is clear from all the Chronocrators and timelord systems used, both natally and mundanely, that precession indicating ages was not a consideration of the early astrologers.

Hello Steven,

Within the confines of the way I originally drafted my question this does seem to be the case. Still, the notion of the astrological Great Year was an idea strongly embedded in Greek and Roman culture through sources like Plato and Berossus. Just because we have no remaining texts does not prove astrologers were not influenced by such ideas. However, in regards a specific knowledge of precession it does seem the ideas of Hipparchus and Ptolemy on precession did take a long time to influence astrologers. Although the quote provided from Origen earlier is intriguing. Perhaps Origen was a bit ahead of his contemporaries living in the city of Ptolemy.

One certainly can find notions of astrological ages in sources such as the Babyloniaca of Berossus. In particular it seems to have been widely believed that the Great Year was marked by cosmic disruptions. During the hellenistic period, two such turning points were recognised and interpreted as the solstices of the Great Year: the world would be destroyed in a flood at the onset of the cosmic winter and a fire at the the onset of the cosmic summer.

Berosus..affirms that the whole issue is brought about by the course of the planets. So positive is he that he assigns a date for both conflagration and the deluge. All that the earth inherits will he assures us, be consigned to flame when the planets, which now move in different orbits all assemble in Cancer, so arranged in one row that a straight line may pass through there spheres. When the same gathering takes place in Capricorn then we are in danger of deluge. Berossus, Babyloniaca as cited in Seneca, Natural Questions, III 28 7-29

Its a total conjecture on my part but could the Cancer ascendant of the Thema Mundi have some basis in these beliefs?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thema_Mundi

MarkC wrote:
Its a total conjecture on my part but could the Cancer ascendant of the Thema Mundi have some basis in these beliefs?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thema_Mundi

Without forgetting the story of the doors of the men and doors of the gods....

In every case all this story of world year that reflects in individuals lives is not so new:

Genesis, I, 27
"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them"

and Firmicus about Thema Mundi, book III

"And so, from events which actually occurred in the history of mankind, the hypothetical birthchart of the universe was put together with allegorical meaning. It has been handed down to us as an example to follow in the charts of men. So that we may not seem to have left out anything we shall explain how it can be proved that man was created in the image of the universe."

planetary periods, chronocrators, in life of the man work exactly like in the life of the whole universe, this we should take for granted, it seems to me.

margherita

In particular it seems to have been widely believed that the Great Year was marked by cosmic disruptions. During the hellenistic period, two such turning points were recognised and interpreted as the solstices of the Great Year: the world would be destroyed in a flood at the onset of the cosmic winter and a fire at the the onset of the cosmic summer.

Berosus..affirms that the whole issue is brought about by the course of the planets. So positive is he that he assigns a date for both conflagration and the deluge. All that the earth inherits will he assures us, be consigned to flame when the planets, which now move in different orbits all assemble in Cancer, so arranged in one row that a straight line may pass through there spheres. When the same gathering takes place in Capricorn then we are in danger of deluge. Berossus, Babyloniaca as cited in Seneca, Natural Questions, III 28 7-29

Its a total conjecture on my part but could the Cancer ascendant of the Thema Mundi have some basis in these beliefs?

Perhaps Cancer and Capricorn carry some of the underlying distrust of extreme states in the Greek search for workable moderation and artful combination. The solstices are the extreme points of the Sun's north-south movement, so they are good candidates for extreme occurrences. Appropriately, phlegmatic winter gets destruction by flood and choleric summer gets it by fire. Cancer and Capricorn were symbols of two other extremes: Cancer for the descent of the soul and Capricorn for it's re-ascent to the source. The balance of the equinoxes may be more pleasingly moderate but they don't have the symbolic pizzazz for portraying the tension of the created world.

Cancer and Capricorn were symbols of two other extremes: Cancer for the descent of the soul and Capricorn for it's re-ascent to the source.

Yes that is a natural connection to the two signs. Although I suspect the link to the signs may be much older than the humoural associations you suggest. The quote attributed to Berossus suggests an ancient Babylonian origin to these ideas.

What I find equaly interesting though is that these ideas passed over into Greek Stoic philosophy.

For example, the philosopher Chrysippus makes the Stoic position explicit:

The Stoics say that when the planets return to the same point in longitude and latitude, where each was at the beginning when the cosmos was first formed, at specific periods of time they bring about a conflagration and destruction of the world, and then return the cosmos to the same state. When the stars are brought back to the same position everything that happened in the previous period is repeated in exactly the same way. There will again be a Socrates and a Plato and everyone else along with the same friends and fellow-citizens; the same things will happen to them and they will do the same things again, and every city and village and field will return. The restoration of the whole occurs not once, but many times ? indeed without end into infinity? There will be nothing strange compared with what happened before, but all will be exactly the same right down to the smallest detail. Quoted in M.R. Wright ? Ancient Astrology