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49 by Clelia Romano
Hi Alchemist:
two planets is each other's house without aspect may or may not produce results (depending on zodiacal state and the rest of the chart, house placement), etc
.

Two planets in each other house wil produce always the matter of the house they rule: if they rule each other house...the result is obvious ;-)
Some astrologers used to call mutual reception without aspect "liberality" or "generosity". Nowadays, we call it mutual reception. The question then becomes: do we need to restore the older terms or can we just work by using terms such as reception with/without aspect?
I suggest that it will be better for clarity sake, IMO. And only Ibn Ezra accepts reception with no aspect.

Cl?lia
http://www.astrologiahumana.com

50 by The alchemist
Clelia Romano wrote:Two planets in each other house wil produce always the matter of the house they rule: if they rule each other house...the result is obvious ;-)
Hi Clelia,

By house I meant domicile. Sorry for the misunderstanding... :-)
Clelia Romano wrote:And only Ibn Ezra accepts reception with no aspect.
Lilly too methinks.

51 by Tom
Mark the point about the aspects was simply to demonstrate that there are all kinds of traditional nuances with aspects (and maybe other techniques) that we don't use, yet all the authors cite them. There is no slope slippery or otherwise. The point is that our astrology does not appear to suffer as a result of the near extinction of dexter and sinister aspects, it will not suffer with the loss of other nuances that we don't use. Think about it. When was the last time anyone used the term "generosity" on the traditional Forum? I wouldn't' be surprised if no one ever checked to see if there was an aspect when reception was mentioned.

As for the importance of splitting hairs with reception, I admit I didn't read every word of every post, but I did read a lot of them Olivia provided a personal and understandably vague example and that's it. I don't know what her life is like and certainly don't expect her to announce the intimate details on the Forum. Everything else on this topic is just appeals to authority. If we're going to cite philosophical principles, fine, but a concrete example is equally important. I admit this is a difficult task, but if the principle is so important, perhaps it should be done.

Traditional authors for the most part, Lilly is one exception, give few to no examples. In order to understand what they say, we need examples. It would have been nice if they were provided, but since they aren't, we have to come up with our own or we accept what is said on faith. If we can't come up with them because they are so hard to find, then maybe they aren't as important as we might think.

I think reception is very important. I think reception with aspect is stronger than reception without it. I'm not all that convinced that referring to reception without aspect as "generosity" or "disposition" is anything more than semantics.

54 by Tom
I thought I?d pony up with my own example of mutual reception without aspect. It?s from Morin?s book 18 of Astrologia Gallica. I?m forced to use my laptop and therefore I have no astrology software. I?ll give the chart data only. I can?t copy what isn?t here. I know this is one example, but it is only fair that I offer it as I requested it of others.

Joan de Giam D. De Rispe (a man)
April 4 1607 NS
1:20 pm LMT ? 0:09:20
Paris, France
18 Leo rises; 4 Taurus is on the MC.

Morin uses Regiomontanus cusps but for this example it probably doesn?t matter what house system is used. I?d quote him directly on theory, but the context of his writing in this chapter is not exactly what we are discussing and I?m afraid something will be lost or misunderstood, if I did that. I?ll paraphrase and quote where appropriate and within our context. If anyone is interested, let me know, and I?ll post his ideas on reception separately.

The chart shows Venus, lady of the MC in the 9th in Aries and Mars in Taurus in the 10th. Jupiter in Pisces in the 8th is noteworthy as well. This is traditional astrology and Morin, so we?re dealing in death.

If there can be no reception without aspect, Venus and Mars are not in mutual reception in this chart as they are in adjacent signs. It is difficult to argue that death is not an important event in the life, so if the two are connected to each other and death, and perhaps contrary to other indications in the chart, it is arguable that the mutual reception is powerful or at least existent. Jupiter in Pisces ruling the 8th and having no connection to the ASC or its ruler might promise a peaceful death, or some may argue that way. Not so in this case:
? ? his [the native?s] Venus, ruler of the Midheaven, resides in Aries with the Sun, which is the ruler of his Ascendant. Mars lies in Taurus in sextile with both the Moon and Jupiter and also in partile trine with Saturn, (ruler of the 7th house of wars). Thus according to common astrological practice, this gentleman should certainly be fortunate in war-related actions and enterprises.?
Pretty obvious stuff: Venus, a benefic, rules the MC is conjunct the ASC ruler (Morin didn?t buy into combustion and if Venus is leaving combustion at 6 degrees distant it is not that strong anyway; I don?t have an ephemeris or software to check that). Mars the other culprit is fortified by soft aspects to strong planets including the ruler of the House of War in his domicile. So Morin continues:
?But on the contrary he was most unlucky in wars and ended his days by dying miserably in combat by a wound to the head caused by a flaming projectile that killed him instantly.?
He goes on to note that Mars is conjunct Caput Algol, and in partile square to the ASC. Morin argues that the beneficial aspects mentioned above produce no benefit because of the Mars ? Venus mutual reception. He was, according to Morin, unlucky in war in general and he died violently (Mars) in the course of his actions (10th house ruled by Venus) either against a foreign enemy or in foreign land (9th house occupied by Venus) ? I don?t know which.

In this case, the mutual reception without aspect appears quite strong. I suppose, since we?re dealing with qualitative reasoning, someone might object here and there or point to this or that and then claim the mutual reception is not necessary, but I think the same thing could be done with examples that show the opposite. This one is nice because the outcome is shown by the mutual reception and contrary to other factors in the chart.

The other examples Morin shows are with aspect and of relevance to the chapter in question, but not to us.

Source: Astrologia Gallica, Book 18 Chapter 7

56 by Olivia
And I'd argue that a trine from Saturn to Mars in the place of Mars' detriment offers nothing good, nor do sextiles from the Moon and Jupiter to the place of Mars' detriment, especially coming in from the 6th, 8th, and 12th houses. I suspect that Jupiter's sitting on Scheat as well - and that's a very unfun fixed star.

There's also that small matter of the South Node on the cusp of 8.

That's a very quick look, obviously there's a lot more. Sorry for the Alchabitius houses, didn't think to reset it, but I'm fairly certain it's pretty close in either house system.

57 by GR
There's also the matter that Venus is under the beams. Morin can say what he likes about it, that and a baguette gets him a BS sandwich :D Mars being in his fall or exile is not going to behave well, and being the malefic of the contrary sect in the place of action is a rather stark indicator of public death or execution. Venus, being under the beams, isn't any use to Mars.

The worst thing in regards to life is the superior tetragon Saturn makes to the Sun, where he strikes with his ray from a bad house with no reception whatsoever & is lord of the 7th. In a demented way, this configuration could have been body-guarding (spear-bearing or doruphoria) if only the Sun had been angular. The Moon heading to Saturn's opposition adds to the danger to the body.

Mars' trigonal to Saturn makes would add the "flaming shot" to the manner of death; that he's also in the 7th from the Lot of Fortune is another baleful indicator.

Jupiter in the 8th is the only good thing about his death, being that he went off to the Pearly Gates quickly.
Gabe

58 by Clelia Romano
Tom, thanks for the elegant example!

I?ll learn how to put charts here and I?ll bring one. First I have to find a good example. :lol:

As for the chart: am I seeing correctly? :???:

Saturn, lord of the 7th and wars in opposition to the Moon in Cancer? The first one in the malefic 6th and the Moon in the 12th? An opposition in horrible houses and with mutual reception by detriment? :-sk Sometimes Good gives pearls to the mud.

How comes a trine would save the man? Mars is saturn?s dispositor by exaltation, or receives ( sorry, sorry) Saturn, so Saturn in the ilnesses house is the matter where Mars will create his empire.
The war depends of Saturn, okay, but Saturn is cadent!

The only good thing this man has is the Sun exalted in Aries in the 9th of his joy. But the lord of the Sun is in detriment and with power by house, even worse.

Now I want to ask you: Morinus called mutual reception to the relationship between Venus and Mars? I don?t have this book, so I need you to inform me if the stuff of mutual reception is your conclusion or Morinus?s

BTW, can someone tell me, please, if there is a tutorial to put so beautiful charts here as Olivia did?
Thanks

Cl?lia
http://www.astrologiahumana.com

59 by Olivia
Minor off-topic:

Clelia, and anyone else who needs it - Goca put up a short tutorial on uploading charts here:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3538

You can also take a screenshot from your own chart programme and upload it in the same manner as you would an astro.com chart. I use photobucket.com to host images, but there are many free image hosting sites on the web.

If you're confused, PM me and I'll see if I can walk you through it, or I'll try to create a more step-by-step tutorial, but Goca's put in all the important bits, and it's really not difficult once you've done it a couple of times.

60 by astrojin
GR:
Jupiter in the 8th is the only good thing about his death, being that he went off to the Pearly Gates quickly.
I agree with this completely. It is sometimes said that when lord of 8th (or benefic) is in the 8th, it portends good death (whatever that means). I would vote for quick deah.
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