Hi yuki,

Many medieval astrologers diverged about the rules of longevity calculation. Zoller is not the only authority in this technique. Even Ptolemy and Bonatti had contrasting rules. Angularity seems to be the priority in giving the major years rather than dignity. An angular planet, as long as not detriment can give major years. An angular planet will be very prominent in ones life and can easily influence life in a strong way. A dignified non-angular planet will still be very strong but particularly about the issues her house deals with or the house she rules.

In Ledger's chart, Venus is exalted in a succedent house. She is with south node and damaged by Saturn opposition. She is not likely to give major years.

Hermes wrote:Would y'all be intersted in more data of people who lived to be very old?

I got several.

Kind regards

Hi All

I apologize for not yet posting my data.
I thought they were readily available to me, but this proved to be a misconception of mine.
I now need to remember were the data are stored.
A severe case of Cognitive dyslexia I'm afraid.

If I find them, I'll post them.

By the way... did anybody do any research on Amy Winehouse and her longevity?

Hermes wrote:By the way... did anybody do any research on Amy Winehouse and her longevity?

I was thinking about this from the perspective of the "27 club" which coincided with a very strange incident on July 31st. I went into a Sinclair station to prepay and the lady there was in a very "up" mood saying there was no need to prepay and I said that this was the fiirst station since NY that didn't require prepay. Then she said "guess what - what's even cooler than that is you'll get cash back". After pumping gas I went back in and she said "you get 27 cents back, are you excited"? I just kind of shruged my shoulders, then she said "you better watch out because that 27 cents will get you". It had been in the back of my mind for miles what she said because Amy Winehouse had just died at age 27 and it made me think of the combinations in the zodiacal releasing from fortune where Scorpio/Sag = 27, Cap = 27 and Pisces/Aries = 27. A few hours later I ran into fortune directly while traveling to the west where fortune naturally settles (as opposed to Hermes suspending things in the east). That's when I hit a deer just west of Missoula, MT. The chart for the event is 9:43 pm on July 31 near Frenchtown, MT (about 15 miles west of Missoula). It is one of the most startling charts I've ever seen. It also happened on my loosing of the bond (ZR fortune - within an hour or so from Capricorn to Cancer after about 18 months of Capricorn sub). After that, I stayed the night off the highway near the railroad track at Cyr, MT just a few miles later. 27 Aquarius was rising and the Moon was at 27 Leo which is where my natal fortune was and the transiting Moon. I had been looking at that chart for months in Delphic Oracle (double clicking on the Scorpio -> Capricorn -> LB Cancer of Aug 1st (which was July 31 in western time zone) wondering what it could mean. If I could have seen past the mountains in the distance the Moon would have been directly behind those deer.

I think one should check zodiacal releasing for fortune because Valens says that it indicates bodily matters (health) as well as general good fortune (what happens to you by chance (unintended) as opposed to what happens to you as a consequence of your actions which is represented by spirit).

I suspect that many of these people had fortune in Pisces, Scorpio or Capricorn because for these a physical change would occur at age 27.

I think that an example can prove, yes. It can prove that the theory was wrong.The man I used as example was not wanting to die , was not a suicide or a drug addict.

Not in scientific field, especially not in astrology - you know the old adage "There's an exception to every rule" - this certainly covers the mentioned example. Why would he have to wish for his own death/be a drug addict or whatever to die at of the age 60 while having the Sun at the ascendant in Aries? Where's the crucial point, the link I'm missing? I think we already agreed that a man can and often does die before his theoretically given years have expired!

Mars, being the rule of the ASC and falling amiss in a bad house did not bode well if you suppose 120 years of life. I would not use Mars as Alchocodem or as Hyleg, differently of what you understood I would.
I was saying that we have to look the chart as a whole. The Sun in Aries in the ASC or in the 10th is unable to provide its great years if the chart can?t support that.

I never supposed he would live 120 years, there are possible applications to/from this Sun which lessen the time span it can provide. Mars couldn't be used as hyleg in this case no matter how hard you wanted it, it just cannot qualify as such in the 6th! If you wouldn't use Mars as alcochoden, and you don't really accept the Sun, then what's the next candidate? The Sun in Aries is almost never able to provide its greater years in reality, no matter what the chart looks like.

There is the possibility that the Sun in Aries is not able to be Hyleg and Alchocodem, because he is ruled by a malefic.My father has this configuration, Sun in Aries in the 9th and is 92 years old now. But he has Mars angular in Scorpio

What was this angularity of Mars meant to demonstrate in this particular chart?


Goran

[I think one should check zodiacal releasing for fortune because Valens says that it indicates bodily matters (health) as well as general good fortune (what happens to you by chance (unintended) as opposed to what happens to you as a consequence of your actions which is represented by spirit).

I suspect that many of these people had fortune in Pisces, Scorpio or Capricorn because for these a physical change would occur at age 27.

Hi Curt:
Very interesting post. I have Fortune in Pisces and at age 27 a physician gave a prescription of medicine to facilitate pregnancy.
It had as colateral effect an huge loss of weight. I was not fat but having lost 8 kilos, was a big deal because it helped me to maintain myself slim for years and years. If that situation would not happened I would be over weight now: so it helped me to maintain my good shape. My Fortune is in the 5th house!
Applauses to Valens!

Cl?lia

Hermes wrote:By the way... did anybody do any research on Amy Winehouse and her longevity?

Hi Hermes:

I wrote a little essay on this subject, but it is published in Portuguese. Maybe you?ll be able to understand using Google translator: give it a try!
http://www.astrologiahumana.com/Amy%20Winehouse.pdf

Let me know if you got it! I can translate into English, but I?m in a hurry just now.

Clelia

I wrote:

Mars, being the rule of the ASC and falling amiss in a bad house did not bode well if you suppose 120 years of life. I would not use Mars as Alchocodem or as Hyleg, differently of what you understood I would.
I was saying that we have to look the chart as a whole. The Sun in Aries in the ASC or in the 10th is unable to provide its great years if the chart can?t support that.

Goran:

I never supposed he would live 120 years, there are possible applications to/from this Sun which lessen the time span it can provide. Mars couldn't be used as hyleg in this case no matter how hard you wanted it, it just cannot qualify as such in the 6th!

I think we are having a misunderstanding here. I was just saying that I would NOT use Mars neither as Hyleg nor Alchocodem.

Goran:

If you wouldn't use Mars as alcochoden, and you don't really accept the Sun, then what's the next candidate? The Sun in Aries is almost never able to provide its greater years in reality, no matter what the chart looks like.

I agree, because we do not see people living 120 years, but believing that the Sun was the giver of years he would be able to live 100 years or a little more, depending on the planets aspecting the Sun and much less if Saturn aspected the Sun, etc, etc
I just wanted to point out that according to Masha?allha, in On reception, the part where he teaches on how to obtain the hyleg, he would never pick up the Sun in Aries, because the author wants an Alchocodem, being the Sun wherever it was.

I said also:

There is the possibility that the Sun in Aries is not able to be Hyleg and Alchocodem, because he is ruled by a malefic.My father has this configuration, Sun in Aries in the 9th and is 92 years old now. But he has Mars angular in Scorpio

Goran:

What was this angularity of Mars meant to demonstrate in this particular chart?

It is a good Mars, differently of Heather?s Mars. I was trying to cover all the possibilities. The way you put my ideas look like pure nonsense. I am not here to answer, but to think. I believe I do not know enough to answer absolutely anything, so I?m trying to be open minded and cover all the possibilities. I don?t have the answers and if you have them be my guest, explain them all ... and congratulations.
Clelia

Clelia Romano wrote:
I wrote a little essay on this subject, but it is published in Portuguese. Maybe you?ll be able to understand using Google translator: give it a try!
http://www.astrologiahumana.com/Amy%20Winehouse.pdf

Nice article

margherita

OK, let's give it another try:

Mars, being the rule of the ASC and falling amiss in a bad house did not bode well if you suppose 120 years of life. I would not use Mars as Alchocodem or as Hyleg, differently of what you understood I would.
I was saying that we have to look the chart as a whole. The Sun in Aries in the ASC or in the 10th is unable to provide its great years if the chart can?t support that.

I never supposed he would live 120 years, there are possible applications to/from this Sun which lessen the time span it can provide. Mars couldn't be used as hyleg in this case no matter how hard you wanted it, it just cannot qualify as such in the 6th!

I think we are having a misunderstanding here. I was just saying that I would NOT use Mars neither as Hyleg nor Alchocodem.

I don't think there's a misunderstanding if you read carefully what you wrote and what I replied - I reiterate once more that Mars in that position couldn't, by any means, be chosen as hyleg as you clearly imply by stating you wouldn't choose him - meaning, someone else might. I surely wouldn't choose him(again, meaning I couldn't have supposed you would) because, again, as a hyleg, he is clearly not eligible; so why even mention the virtually non - existing possibility of someone picking him for that role?

Goran:
If you wouldn't use Mars as alcochoden, and you don't really accept the Sun, then what's the next candidate? The Sun in Aries is almost never able to provide its greater years in reality, no matter what the chart looks like.

I agree, because we do not see people living 120 years, but believing that the Sun was the giver of years he would be able to live 100 years or a little more, depending on the planets aspecting the Sun and much less if Saturn aspected the Sun, etc, etc

Ok, there's no would be option of 100(let's assume 120) years if you already take into account the possibility of Saturn's/Mars's aspect to the same Sun, taking away from the Sun their lesser years which would bring us to 90 years of age(or less than that) which again, isn't so rare in real life, and so on. After all, we already agreed that the theoretical life-span given by any alcocoden can be cut short(Heath Ledger!) or prolonged.

I just wanted to point out that according to Masha?allha, in On reception, the part where he teaches on how to obtain the hyleg, he would never pick up the Sun in Aries, because the author wants an Alchocodem, being the Sun wherever it was.

Did you mean Mars as alchocoden? Otherwise your sentence doesn't make sense, because you mention the Sun twice.


I said also:

There is the possibility that the Sun in Aries is not able to be Hyleg and Alchocodem, because he is ruled by a malefic.My father has this configuration, Sun in Aries in the 9th and is 92 years old now. But he has Mars angular in Scorpio

Goran:
What was this angularity of Mars meant to demonstrate in this particular chart?

It is a good Mars, differently of Heather?s Mars. I was trying to cover all the possibilities. The way you put my ideas look like pure nonsense. I am not here to answer, but to think. I believe I do not know enough to answer absolutely anything, so I?m trying to be open minded and cover all the possibilities. I don?t have the answers and if you have them be my guest, explain them all ... and congratulations.
Clelia

This is simply not true - all I'm doing is quoting what you said and trying to clarify what you meant by that, because it seems a bit too fussy - at least for my taste.

Best,
Goran

By the way Clelia, Venus is not cadent. She is succedent in the 11th house.

margherita wrote:

Clelia Romano wrote:
I wrote a little essay on this subject, but it is published in Portuguese. Maybe you?ll be able to understand using Google translator: give it a try!
http://www.astrologiahumana.com/Amy%20Winehouse.pdf

Nice article

margherita

Thank you, Margherita, it was only some thoughts about the subject. I wrote it thinking in other traditional astrologers, not the public in general, so it is not didatic at all.
:-)

I?m happy you was able to read it and specially to like it!

Clelia