Skyscript Astrology Forum

Good morning,

The text quoted in my last post is general, the delineation of Saturn referred to later in this thread is specific and depends on a condition, an aspect Moon-Saturn, that is not fulfilled in the natal chart. Here is Prof. Robbins translation followed by Mr Armand's, bold emphasis added, from Tetrabiblos, Book IV:

"... [Saturn] in Virgo and Pisces, or the watery signs, if the moon is in aspect, by drowning and suffocation in water;"

"If Saturn be in Virgo or Pisces, or watery signs, and configurated with the Moon, he will operate death by means of water, by drowning and suffocation;"

In Miss Abigail Gustafson's natal chart the Moon and Saturn are in aversion to each other, not configured. If one thinks the rule be better applied to the solar revolution chart and / or to the death transit chart, Saturn is neither posited in Virgo nor in a water sign in either of them.

My objection, however, to Ptolemy's approach in this Section would often be severe. He based several of his other delineations on the ancient Greek mythological forms of the unequal constellations whilst applying the equal signs of the tropical zodiac of the northern hemisphere. This seems inconsistent to me.

Best regards,

lihin

PS Requesting someone to do homework can be a boomerang.

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Lihin

I do not know why associations of drowning with Saturn are so peculiar to you. Valens say of Saturn that it "causes violent deaths by water, strangulation, imprisonment, or dysentery" - even if it's not always explicit in every author the idea of saturn associating with strangulation or drowning is normally implicit.

I can't help but think you're splitting hairs here.

varuna2 wrote: Are Mars Jupiter conjunctions generally considered malefic in the system you use?

No, but Jupiter is out of sect and out of dignity, this makes it act more malefically. Its benefic qualities are greatly reduced and some will consider an out of sect out of dignity Jupiter as being an accidental malefic. The conjunction to Mars would then only add to this malefic nature.
I take it that the north node augments whatever it touches - if it touches malefics it increases their malice, and if it touches benefics it increases their benefice. In this case the north node enhances the malefic qualities associated with the conjunction.

I appreciate that not everyone would agree with this interpretation however.

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varuna2 wrote: Well, in my understanding a Jupiter conjunct the north node is terrible, even if the Jupiter is superb by placement, because the north node will warp the benific traits of Jupiter into malefic traits.

I think classical thinking is that the nodes are hazardous/malefic in general anyway. I am aware that in Jyotish the north node is considered malefic and I suspect that the idea of the nodes being malefic generally is from the same classical thinking. In the medieval literature the north node became more about increase and the south node about decrease so that by the 12-13th centuries in the western tradition there was, in the west, a clearer distinction between the north being benefic and the south malefic, which in turn is likely to be directly from the arabs, who in turn probably got theirs from the greeks and interactions with the indians.

I'm sure the entire thing is from a shared root basically. The thinking is that the north node representing the northward path of the moon links to something positive for (material at least) increase and gain. I suspect this same link is seen negatively by a tradition who may view the whole thing with more spirituality - ie material/physical gain is a negative/malefic thing.

I don't know, I'm just theorising.

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I'm not entirely sure why I still bother... But briefly: both water generally and drowning specifically have always been associated with Saturn in astrology. Read the texts yourself; I haven't the time to look up references for you. I gave one, to Ptolemy, because I imagined you would be familiar with it (apparently I was wrong), but there are many others.

Other 'watery testimonies' would of course make things even more certain, but neither Ptolemy's Greek nor Robbins's translation reads as though the Moon's aspect is an absolute requirement (and even if they did, other authorities would disagree). Do you read Greek?

Incidentally, there is no Armand translation of the Tetrabiblos that I am aware of. There is an Ashmand translation of a paraphrase of the Tetrabiblos.

In Miss Abigail Gustafson's natal chart the Moon and Saturn are in aversion to each other, not configured.

They are in fact configured by sign in the sidereal chart that I use, with Saturn in Virgo and the Moon in Cancer.

My objection, however, to Ptolemy's approach in this Section would often be severe.

No doubt, and prefaced by 'methinks'. But you (rather aggressively) asked for sources, and I provided one. Whether you agree with it or not is beside the point.

A little learning is a dangerous thing;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely sobers us again.
(Alexander Pope)

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Well I'm glad Martin started the thread.

Back to Basics, the deaths, short length of life should be in the Radix. The Natal Chart should show it. It is a maternal familial death of both children. Their destiny is strongly tied to their mothers fate.

The closest explanation I feel, is Petr's below, but still not there. We are missing something. An opportunity to discover a new concept in interpretation is presenting itself to us. I don't think we've figured it out yet.

Petr wrote:SolarFire and Janus evaluate correctly that horoscope is preventional. Therefore chosen as hyleg PF. They forget, as Martin said, that Ptolemy recognized as hylegical place 10, 1, 11, 7 and 9 houses. Therefore hyleg is ascendant. Only Porfhyrius Magus hyleg determined correctly. Arab astrologers would consider Moon or PF. Candidates for alchocoden are at Asc - Moon and Mars. Moon gives about 4.9 years of life. Mars gives a little over 7 years. Moon or PF gives as hyleg Saturn. Here it is difficult to assess the effect of the Moon. When you subtract the full years and considering the influence of Mars, we can get into negative numbers. In any event alchocoden shows a small life span (better life force).

Martin"s Statement: " There is a little more in the profections, primarily Mars on the MC squaring the ascendant, with the Sun (ruler of the ascendant in my, sidereal, book) opposing this Mars by transit."

Also gives a good explanation using profections. Still no cigar though, Back to the Natal Chart.

Lihin,

I also agree with Lihin, regarding Saturn and drowning. I is puzzling me also. Saturn in Virgo, earth sign also. Saturn is generally associated with cold and dry. Saturn with the Moon, the moon giving the water element, not Saturn, then I could relate to Saturn/Moon and drowning, that would make sense Perhaps cold muddy water, which I have seen/read as a significator of Saturn. . But Saturn in Virgo, not so much.

Williams chart is a bit easier to see his fate as Martin stated, it is very weak, as both charts are, however I still don't feel there is an adequate explanation for an early death FROM THE NATAL CHART.

Its got to be there and very clearly, for such a horrific, shocking death, which made major news in the area.

In Abigails, Solar Return, eight days after her death Mars is conjunct her Natal Saturn in Virgo, a very violent aspect, I could also make a good case for Pluto and Saturn, however, most of you would discount that. I do have to say, even though Pluto is not longer a planet, I do find lately, the theme of death with Pluto coming up all over the place lately. If many of you use points, fixed stars and any number of lots, why would it be so difficult to associate Pluto with death or even use Pluto. Lately its been very active in pointing death out to me. Any one else? something to look at possibly. I have an opened mind.

Its in the Natal, I don't believe we have discovered the reason yet, but close. Any other Theories out there? We are as intelligent as Ptolemy, Valens, Morin, Lilly, and as experienced. Ptolemy wasn't even an astrologer! He sat back and reviewed others work, and made his own conclusions, albeit pretty good ones. But ....... there is more to this, we just have to keep at it, and we may discover something new!

Martin Gansten wrote:

Goodness. Primary directions have had two millennia of 'momentum'; they are not some new invention waiting to prove itself. No one has to learn the technique if s/he doesn't want to; but you can't expect to make sense of a technical subject by trying to pick it up piecemeal. And using directions as a stand-alone technique is not the traditional way.

Personally, I think the main point about William's nativity is that it is so weak to begin with. All planets are below the horizon, and none is qualified to be hyleg, so this reverts to the ascendant, the (sidereal) ruler of which is cadent, in its fall, and applying to the (sidereal) ruler of the 8th within just over 1?. The Moon, ruler of the sect, is closely squared by Mars (albeit separating), with no other aspects. Both the benefics are cadent and combust, while both the malefics are succedent; there are no angular planets. Any directions, profections, etc, have to be seen in the light of these radical configurations.

thanks for your ongoing posts and insights here martin.. i think it is fair to say primary directions have had a long sleep of a few hundred years and some are trying to stimulate a renewed interest in them, including yourself. personally i am all for it which is my reason for being motivated in learning more about them here on this thread and elsewhere. i find the examples and discussion illuminating and appreciate your involvement.. i thank graham fox for starting the thread on the sidereal section which i have been reading with interest as well..

getting back to william's chart, regardless of how we define a 'weak' chart, i am sure some 'weak' charts don't end up resulting in death at an early age.. i can agree most would define the chart in some similar manner, but i find this argument 'weak' in itself and would like to find a stronger one, lol..

the conversation on the nodes is interesting, but clearly a long conversation with many in's and outs.. williams mars sits on the nodal axis as well..

the key comment that i would agree with you fully on is this :

Martin Gansten wrote: Any directions, profections, etc, have to be seen in the light of these radical configurations.

if you feel so inclined, i would be curious to read your impression of daniel laplantes primary directions in the same context. thanks!

morning sun - yes to pluto and themes of death from my involvement in astrology.. i also find saturn shows up often in symbolic fashion during times when death is a focus.. this is one of the many dilemma's for present day astrologers. how many points on the chart does one include? recently i saw a chart that included a number of special lots.. it made me think that regardless of what system one uses in astrology, the presence or absence of any number of points in a chart has more to do with the person casting the chart.. these extra points may or may not be an aid to understanding the chart better depending on the person using them.. i suppose this is a separate conversation not directly related to primary directions.. then again, it carries over into primary directions and helps one to see more or not as well!