Skyscript Astrology Forum

If the guy was not a serial killer, I think he nevertheless was notorious for his martial things related to children, most likely he was a rapist.

If you come out that the guy is an average philistine working at school, my understanding of natal astrology is ruined. I have no other idea what Mars's overcoming can mean in the chart.

He overcomes all planets, including the luminaries which are approaching an eclipse; the Sun at the time of eclipse is conjunct Pluto. There are many other not run -off-the mill indications...

Frankly, I am confused

Mark, I know you said you wanted a Sidereal perspective on this but after looking to this chart, I already have it in my files from when I was researching a certain group of people.

Hi james,

For this chart, I think triplicity rulers are a moot point. To me, in this chart, the other planets in the second house, no longer exist, including the Moon. I believe the sun has absorbed their energies, focus and their intent, it has become all the planets, much like a megalomaniac.

Venus is cadet, in her fall, and squared by Saturn, totally ineffective, very weak in stopping any malefic energy/behavior. Totally overcome.

Just my thoughts. i am also debating the house methods lately, so in this chart I did not fully delineate it, until I clarify my own thoughts on the different house methods which modify any reading substantially!! It's rather a bothersome point with me lately.

Hello

I've found 7 Rouvrays in France, but none with those coordinates. The coordinates correspond to the City of Arras, near the Belgian border (maybe it's a suburb or Arras). But I shouldn't think the ascendant would change sign even if the place is wrong.

Sidereal attempt (hope I'm allowed to put it here...). WSH. I use an ayanamsha a bit less (25') than Krishnamurti, putting everthing 25' forward. Here, it makes Saturn change sign/house.

Mars in Aries/11 is aspecting (dexter square =full Indian special aspect of 4 of Mars) everything in Cancer/2 (Ju, Mo, Su, NN + Me ruler of ASC-Gemini). In the ashtakavarga point system 11 is by far the most powerful house (46 points as against just 25 for H1 which gets the least: the median score is always 32, if ascendant is included in count, as I think it should be). By virtue of the 4:10 rule, Mars should also be able to "dominate", or take over, the planets in 2, except for Jupiter. Mars has a high "efficacity" score of 5 in its placement (this is difficult for Mars to get, as with Saturn it has fewer points to distribute than the others), and has more points than all planets in 2 except Jupiter, which also has 5 and is exalted, so is perhaps "undominated". I should say that in theory these points of mars are supposed to be "benefic" points, though they are sometimes taken just to refer to strength. But I don't know enough about to say more: I learnt some of this system for timing events years ago, it's not very fresh.

So the chart looks to be dominated by Mars, ruler of 11 and 6; in Indian astro the ruler of 11 is generally considered naturally mildly malefic, as being rather "overweening". From its own sign it casts a powerful square aspect onto so many factors, including ruler of ASC; also Mars is in a partile square to the nodes the notorious square of the nodes, which would tend to intensify and corrupt the Mars "energy": "When a planet is square to the nodal axis it puts a lot of tension on that planet and its significations. The potential for dramatic events is increased when the planet happens to be a natural malefic, i.e., Mars capable of causing destruction." (http://ronberger.blogspot.fr/2012/04/ma ... junct.html)

The nodes on the 2-8 axis is supposed to be bad for married life in Indian astro, and this is a negative indicator for synastry (probably because 2 represents family life). (see http://www.shankerstudy.com/2007/09/do- ... bliss.html). Also NN conjunct Moon and Mercury (native's mind).

The nodes are exactly on same degree as ascendant ? for some Indian astrologer (e.g. V.K. Choudry's Systems Approach) this degree is the most sensitive point in each house. The nodes are generally considered to cast trine aspects only, so SN would closely aspect sensitive points of H12 and 4, NN those of 6 and 10 .

Saturn is only planet in 1 (Gemini) or aspecting 1 (Saturn at 0?3' Gemini with the ayanamsha I use, 29?38' Taurus with Krishnamurti), and the ASC has no other (Indian) aspects. It's ruler Mercury is conjunct NN, Su, Mo and Ju in that order. Saturn aspects Venus (R5 and 12) which is partile on IC in 3 (Saturn full Indian aspect of 3, dexter sextile by WSH).
(With Saturn in 12 as per Krishnamurti, there would still be strong Saturn in chart by aspect of 3 onto the cluster of planets in 2, especially the partile aspect to Mercury R1).

Very tempting of course to mention Pluto partile conjunct Moon and Jupiter and (very nearly) Sun, and in same sign as Mercury and NN.

The birth is at the new moon, still just waning (by just a few minutes arc), and the nodal axis is close: a malefic moon.

In harmonic 9th, (used as a secondary chart for all domains in Indian astro) Mo, Ma, Ve, Su, Ju (and Pl) are all in opposition to the ASC.

So I'd say a rather troubled personality, aggressive by Mars touching many (most) factors in the chart including Mercury ruler of 1 and Moon (both giving mental make-up); also strongly influenced by Saturn (only planet directly touching H1, and also aspecting Venus on the IC); malefic new moon close to NN; very strong nodal influence on ascendant degree of each house, and Mars and nodes mutually strengthened and compromised by the T-square. I think the latter very tense configuration is probably the most important thing in this chart, with its very tight partile aspect, also partile inconjunct both the ASC and the MC. Only redeeming feature might be exalted Jupiter, maybe able to "resist" Mars and help out.

Thanks to Mark for posting!
Graham

Thanks to everyone that participated.

Time for the unveiling!

Our mystery man was Jean-Pierre Divoire

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Div ... ean-Pierre

From the profile:

French serial rapist, called the Landru of sex. Married 7/18/1966; two kids, he was the Director of a state hostel for orphans and abandoned kids. The serial rapist of little girls, he filmed 41 masochist videos of his sexual torture. Sent to prison in 1993, he tried to commit suicide several times. His wife stood by him at the trial where he was sentenced on 1/29/1996 by the court of Assizes to 20 years prison. He was found hanging with his scarf in his cell on 1/30/1996, 2:40 AM MET, Amiens, France.

Nearly all of you picked up this was a difficult or troubled nativity. However, I think it was Janis that hit the bullseye more than once here.

Ok he wasn't a serial killer but he was a violent paedophile and rapist of young girls. Something only Janis really explicitly suggested. He also correctly suggested his death by hanging!

Take a bow Janis! Very impressive work.

Philosophically, though this chart does trouble me. Could we see a more positive outcome with such an exceptionally difficult natal chart? Divoire achieved a moderate degree of success as a Director of a hostel. However, this opportunity was used to act out his debased sexual instincts.

Certainly, in this chart both malefics effectively operated very destructively from their overcoming position. I think that was somewhat easier to spot tropically with Mars being in detriment. But maybe I would say that as a tropicalist.

Incidentally, Saturn was tropically opposing its own bound in Sagittarius.

Mark

Congratulations to Janis, very impressive!

Mark writes

both malefics effectively operated very destructively from their overcoming position. I think that was somewhat easier to spot tropically with Mars being in detriment. But maybe I would say that as a tropicalist.

I thought the point about overcoming planets was that they had to be strong to dominate, whereas detriment is a factor of weakness. As Janis says:

Mars is dominating the chart and overcomes almost all the planets, including the luminaries. There are no planets who might offer protection from Mars' overcoming - Venus, who disposes Mars, is in her fall

It's a nice chart for non-traditionalists, what with the Pluto...

Graham

Mark wrote: Could we see a more positive outcome with such an exceptionally difficult natal chart? Divoire achieved a moderate degree of success as a Director of a hostel.

i like to think so. i guess i am not into the fatalistic approach to astrology and like to think there are redeeming characteristics to the same highlights that can be described in negative and unhealthy ways.. for whatever reason someone born on the same day/time/place as this fellow who didn't live such a wicked life will never be heard from unless they are famous for the wrong or right reasons.. it's just the way it is.. we hold onto harsh examples, but go over the less extreme examples in humanity.. i think astrology is a bit skewed in that regard and we have to be careful of thinking we know that something in a chart necessarily means something else.. i think we can get some ideas, but i personally am very hesitant to look at astrology in a fatalistic or black and white manner.. thanks for asking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jed_S._Rakoff

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craig_Falkman

while we have no time of birth for either of these folks, divoire's chart can not be explained on the basis of 'overcoming' only.. more needs to be considered, or else one must conclude the same on these 2 individuals who would also have the same set up with regard to 'overcoming'..

Congrats Janis,

I did not pick up on the rape/sexual theme. Can you tell me what in the chart specifically gave the clue of a rapist, or made you conclude he was a rapist.

I could see a masochist, tyrannical, megalomaniac, cruel person, but I did not get the rape or sexual connection. For future knowledge, what was the indicators of a rapist in this chart?

Thanks for the info!

Graham F wrote:

I thought the point about overcoming planets was that they had to be strong to dominate, whereas detriment is a factor of weakness.

My current understanding is that its the overcoming place not the dignity that makes planets strong. Just as angular houses make planets strong. I thought there was pretty much a consensus from Skyscript members on the point, in a recent thread I opened, that essential dignity was fundamentally a qualitative not a quantitative issue.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7264

Hence I dont think a malefic which is debilitated is necessarily 'weaker'. Its malefic and potentially destructive nature is accentuated though. So I think the destructive nature of Mars or Saturn is increased when they are in detriment or fall. Planets obviously also bring their topical association from the radical chart. Hence Saturn in this chart brought all its 12th house associations.

Graham F wrote:

It's a nice chart for non-traditionalists, what with the Pluto...

I wouldn't have excluded that from a delineation myself although it wasn't the focus of this thread or forum. Lots of astrologers noted for expertise in traditional astrology do utilise outer planets. Names that come to mind are Robert Hand, Deborah Houlding, Lee Lehman, Bernadette Brady. Demetra George, and Chris Brennan.

Graham F wrote:

I've found 7 Rouvrays in France, but none with those coordinates. The coordinates correspond to the City of Arras, near the Belgian border (maybe it's a suburb or Arras). But I shouldn't think the ascendant would change sign even if the place is wrong.

Thanks for pointing this out. I tried to duplicate the information from Astrodatabank. However, there was no location listed as Rouvroy listed on Solar Fire. Instead it offered Rouvray. However, when entering the location of Rouvray with Solar Fire I came up with exactly the same coordinates as provided by Astrodatabank for Rouvroy. So I concluded it must be the same location.

Rouvroy is a commune in the Pas-de-Calais department in the Nord-Pas-de-Calais region of France. Rouvroy is 14 km from Arras, the department capital. The coordinates for this location seem about right.

Unfortunately, I dont read French and haven't found any further biographical information on Divoire such as a Wikipedia page. If you come up with anything further do let us know.

Mark

Since the chart si done now, I just wanted to share what I had found while looking into this chart as part of my studies into paedophiles.

The most striking thing here for me is that both the ASC and DSC are not aspected by any of their lords (if we move the ASC to the bounds of Saturn and not Mars, 1/2 a degree later). This will include both Lots. In fact, the only planets able to aspect any angle at all is the Saturn, Venus and Mars combination. In my researches into peadophiles, I found that Valens' Lot of Marriage described the abhorrent sexual behaviour, moreso than the Lot of Marraige Contract as given by Dorotheus. Most of the peadophiles had Mercury being with the lot, apsecting it or ruling it while being afflicted by Saturn but they were mostly abusers of young boys. This chart has the Lot in Leo, conjoined Venus being overcome by Saturn, so the deviance was directed to little girls. The Lot didn't show paedophilia though, I think this Lot has to be taken jointly with somone of a violent or devious nature too, otherwise you might just have someone who is a bit kinky but not necessarily an abuser of children. The Lot itself is also unaspected by any of its rulers, aversion of most of the lords is a dominant feature of many important points of this chart, I thought, but without any biographical data, I can't really be sure how this was operating.

Konrad, before moving on to your chart, I just wanted to share sth I found when looking for astrological 'twins' to the French guy.
He's called Geoff Britton (1 August 1943 at 15:30 Lewisham, England, 51n27, 0w01 GDWT h2e)
He's a rockband-drummer, and in the 70s participated in a Wings' record called: Venus and Mars (of all things).
I had planned to post it because I'd really like to examine the differences, as this one, due to different birthtime has everything in the diurnal part of the chart, but Mars is even stronger to act on the DC. And it becomes the out of sect malefic thus being even more weak essentially.
Chart's on Astro.com, if anyone's interested, I'll post it for discussion later on. First on to yours...