Valens book is the sort that gives me suspicions and arouses the sceptic withn
How does he know the effect of all those triple conjunctions? Case studies? In Rome or Athens there were no more than 20000 people at the time. How would he know it was the triple conjunction and not something else in the chart?
Secondly,the way he finds fame
He uses natal chart, and lots chart.
If I were famous he would tell me it is due to Fortune lord in 10th house and Jupiter MC.
If I was a beggar- you have the sect lord Sun in capricorn in 8th house conjunct lords of 12th and 6th, Fortune lord is in 9th from fortune,hence cadent, and the Aquarian planets in 9th are in 8th from Fortune.
See what I mean? Looks like he had a cop out for anything that could happen .
I think more critical thinking is needed in approaching some of these old books

james_m wrote: it was morin who pointed out - others have too, but he is the first one to come to my mind) - a planet in good 'celestial' state - saturn in capricorn, or sun in aries in this chart - tend to be positives in a chart, regardless of other factors.. another way to think of this set up is how both the sun, saturn (and jupiter - if you want to go by just sign placement squares) are all planets of the same sect.. planets in the same sect tend to work best with one another.. jupiter in capricorn in the 3rd according to this theory would perhaps be more challenging then saturn in capricorn! so many theories, and without talking directly to the person who has the chart directly, we are left to wonder! my brother has saturn in capricorn in the 3rd and he has never suffered for words and communicating.. i am sure all the other set up's in his or any chart also contribute to this..

Hello James,

I meant to comment on that, yes I agreed with you regarding Saturn in domicile in the 3rd being strong, that is how I read the chart, as Saturn being strong and a benefic influence, as I said it gave him a strong and stable career.

My comments regarding the Saturn square was in reference somone else mentioned, then I commented with an EXAMPLE, for instance it could have manifested in many ways, such as speech problem, etc. Not that it did and there are no other indicators of a speech problem, so it was just a bad example. Just wanted to clear that up. Didn't want you to think that is what I thought in this case, definitely not. I would not have suggested Sports broadcaster, if I thought that.

thanks morning sun,

that makes sense!

here is something more general that i and many others involved in astrology have probably thought about often.. why is it some planet in a chart operates unfavourably in one instance and favourably in another? going back to morin and celestial state, the theory would seem to be quite clear cut - planets in good celestial state are generally beneficial, even if they are a malefic, while planets in poor celestial state(sign position) are more malefic.. well, that is the theory.. then we can mix that with the thought that planets in a certain terrestrial state(house position) will also impact the sign position.. we then go on to add aspects - hard aspects can imply difficulty, while soft aspects are considered more favourable.. and, all of this in no particular order, lol) - we can consider the sect of any one of these planets and whether they are likely to be a positive or negative in the chart... i am sure i am missing more astro theories about the good or bad expression of any particular planet in any position, but one immediately thinks they might have a working understanding of what to '''expect''' from any particular planet in the chart..

obviously it is quite complicated and no easy task to know just how a planet might operate in a chart!!! it is much easier to know in hindsight when we have the benefit of knowing more about the person that the chart represents..

personally i have found this to be the case for myself. i can never really tell for sure just how a planet is going to operate in a chart.. does it bring something positive, or does it interfere with something positive? it would be nice to think that jupiter and venus always bring something positive, but that seems very naive to me!! on the other hand it is the same in reverse for the malefics, although this language - benefic and malefic sounds pretty cut and dry!

i suppose planetary phase is yet another consideration and an interesting one too.. any superior planet oriental to the sun, in the first 70 odd degrees is said to be operating very strongly.. in this chart we have mars operating strong by phase in ron macleans chart, with saturn perhaps slightly less so, and jupiter a bit less as well, but overall - all 3 superior planets are generally strong by phase in this chart.. it still doesn't tell me whether they will operate favourably or not!!!!

i tend to always consider planets position in relation to the sun - solar houses, if you will.. i don't know where i picked this idea up, but it was a long time ago, before i understand planetary phase which i still don't claim to fully understand! saturn in the solar tenth here seems indicative of someone capable of rising to a superior place in life.. i have seen this too many times to think i am imagining this, but dang i have to admit it is still a subjective idea that i can't claim statistic proof on!

anyway, thanks for your additional comments and wanting to clear any confusion up on that!!!!

crazy thought - maybe he could have been a speech therapist if he had a slightly different chart - cancer on the midheaven or jigged different..

Hi James,

Yes, I know what you are saying, and I agree. I look for other indicators that substantiate problems, generally there are several. But still, one of those things you wonder how it is going to manifest. i also try to first just get a general feel for the person, their sun, moon, placement and aspects, family, mother, father, it kind of gives a feel for the person, what they are like where they came from, etc.

But I will never forget a seminar in which Rob Hand described a horrible chart, turns out the women was involved in a violent play, she was in the Theatre. He was very concened about her, turned out it played out around her.

Also another example, someone I know, has very violent aspects, but as a child could not express the anger, so they learned how to deal with it. But the violence and anger comes out in people AROUND her. I was amazed that she did not have a temper and could not detect any anger. Perhaps one can overcome aspects / negativity in their charts, this person seems a perfect example.

Anyway, just thought I'd share some thoughts on that!

those are fascinating examples morning sun. thanks!

i just finished reading a book called 'the boy who was raised as a dog' and other stories from a child psychiatrist's notebook by bruce perry and maia szalavitz.. excellent book with horrific stories of childhood trauma, but ultimately a very uplifting book! i wish i could see the charts for these kids as it is fascinating how developmental problems have a lot to do with ones very early environment - 0-3 or 4 years of age.. some of these kids end of finding ways of transcending these experiences and learn to lead positive lives. some don't.. one wonders what the astrology looks like to separate them? i don't know if it is all that easy to tell from the chart!!

Hey James,

That really is fascinating! I often wonder the same thing, why one overcomes trama, and why others do not and if it would show in the chart.

You know that rapist chart we did, I knew he had a difficult childhood, but I never would have picked out he was a rapist and the gruesome things he did.

Very interesting!!