Skyscript Astrology Forum

Michael Sternbach wrote:The Lot Of Fortune indicating what happens to us, the Lot Of Spirit what we contribute ourselves, then?

I am not sure what the question is. My understanding is that you were saying that what I said only talked about the soul animating the bodies, and not the bodies interacting with the soul as well. Goes back to the fate vs free will thing. So I said that life contains both components, fate (Fortune) and free will (Spirit). Stephen Covey calls these two components "Circle of Concern" and "Circle of Influence".

Fortune talks about the things happening to us that are largely beyond our conscious control. But this also refers to the "unintended consequences of our actions", in the words of Schmidt. Let's say I bought something for my relative to make him happy, but he disliked the gift and I didn't make him happy as a result. Or a caring mother who makes her child feel smothered/suffocated rather than loved. In a way, we are free to choose our actions, but we are not always free to choose the result.

When it does produce the result we want, that is part of Spirit, because it was actualised through our own choices and intentions, as far as we are aware.

Of course, in astrological practice, it is not always so clear cut that Fortune always shows what is beyond our control and Spirit what is within our power. Fortune and Spirit interact.

Something about the construction of Fortune and Spirit makes the Lots very interesting when interpreted in the context of fate and free will. These Lots are made up of THREE life-givers: the Sun, the Moon and the Ascendant. The other life-giver is the Pre-natal Lunation, and even this is based on the Sun and the Moon. If we use the Lots to indicate fate and free will, this seems to imply that one's entire life is described by the hylegs.

More supportive in what regard?...living the relatively spartan and secluded life of a monk may be so much easier with a well-placed Saturn in 12th! But of course, it could well be your Saturn inspiring you to do this in the first place. So even though it wouldn't be what most people would look at as a happy life, it might make you happy - if in accordance with your overall personality.

For well-placed planets, malefics bestow good things but they are not without negative effects. For example, Saturn/Mercury makes a good scholar. However, it makes the native slower in speech and vulnerable to depression. On the other hand, well-placed benefics may not have setbacks; I still have to research this. By the way, a Saturn in the 12th is not well-placed, from my point of view. It is above average at best, when it happens to be of the sect in favour, in its own domicile/exaltation and is supported by a sectmate and/or benefics.

Also, happiness in the Aristotelian sense (which may be what Valens meant by "happiness" in Book 2) is not merely a feeling good about one's life, but rather also about doing what one is ordained to do effectively. It is human flourishing, and in a sense it is like the self-actualisation part of Maslow's motivation theory. Now, if the monk does his job well AND feels good about his life, then I'd say that he is "happy". Maslow would probably question whether a monk can actually be self-actualised; given his solitude and possibly chastity, he may not be fulfilling his love and belonging needs. Nonetheless, one can argue that he can fulfill that to a reasonable extent by being in the company of other monks.




Pankaj,

I agree. Feel the person first, then break the news. Sometimes it is better to not say anything at all.

I beleive strongly in the art of astrology but also i believe in another fact which power of faith.you cast a chart for a client on a certain issue which requires immediate answer and found out through your readings.that somehow the result seems unfortunate.i wont advice you keep it away from your client and you tell the otherwise.or continue prosponing your appointment with him/her because you dont want to loose his/her patrotism.want you simply do is, they came to you for advice. You allow the power of faith work in that path.beseech your client to have a strong believe that such event.finance. Or any is astrological outreach path in question will work in is favour,so advice on believe,it has worked for me.some astrologer tend to predict wrongly.and the latter result seems not the way it is said to be. who knows maybe that some of the problem we face in this. present century which causing the quick fading of astrology.no matter what you or degree you get.you can not always get a 100% in all your prediction.

pankajdubey, I love your Richard Hutchison quote!

I think the more esoteric branches of astrology and metaphysics are wonderful, but they aren't apt for most of the reasons why particular individuals request a chart reading at a particular time.

If we know our astrology, we can see what type of person we are dealing with, and how best to deliver bad news. For instance, an ultra-Scorpio won't appreciate a reading that is too sweet and nicey-nice. In contrast, a sensitive Pisces-Virgo type might appreciate a more emotionally supportive, nuanced approach.

Larxene wrote:

I am not sure what the question is. My understanding is that you were saying that what I said only talked about the soul animating the bodies, and not the bodies interacting with the soul as well. Goes back to the fate vs free will thing. So I said that life contains both components, fate (Fortune) and free will (Spirit). Stephen Covey calls these two components "Circle of Concern" and "Circle of Influence".

The way I read you, Fortune is what is sort of bestowed upon us - whereas "Spirit" is that which we create ourselves, that is, by the power of our spiritual creative selves. I'm not sure what free will would have to do with the body. It's in fact often our physical circumstances that are limiting the manifestation of our will. The causa materialis being the only one of the four causes that may defy our self-determination, in Aristotelian theory.

How far does the body influence the soul? I guess it depends a lot on our definition of "soul". If by "soul" we mean the mind or the psyche in general, then the body certainly can have an influence on it. Whether you do an hour of hatha yoga or ingest a Long Island Ice Tea - the physically induced effects on your psyche should be evident!

Fortune talks about the things happening to us that are largely beyond our conscious control. But this also refers to the "unintended consequences of our actions", in the words of Schmidt. Let's say I bought something for my relative to make him happy, but he disliked the gift and I didn't make him happy as a result. Or a caring mother who makes her child feel smothered/suffocated rather than loved. In a way, we are free to choose our actions, but we are not always free to choose the result.

When it does produce the result we want, that is part of Spirit, because it was actualised through our own choices and intentions, as far as we are aware.

Of course, in astrological practice, it is not always so clear cut that Fortune always shows what is beyond our control and Spirit what is within our power. Fortune and Spirit interact.

Surely we can learn from our experiences and consequently make more conscious choices which lead to better results? In other words: Transform Fortune into Spirit!

Talking about the LOF, my understanding of it is that it's indicating an area where we could be easily successful (not least financially) and which gives us great satisfaction.

Something about the construction of Fortune and Spirit makes the Lots very interesting when interpreted in the context of fate and free will. These Lots are made up of THREE life-givers: the Sun, the Moon and the Ascendant. The other life-giver is the Pre-natal Lunation, and even this is based on the Sun and the Moon. If we use the Lots to indicate fate and free will, this seems to imply that one's entire life is described by the hylegs.

That's an interesting observation. I also think that it's especially the Luminaries which are at astrology's base.

For well-placed planets, malefics bestow good things but they are not without negative effects. For example, Saturn/Mercury makes a good scholar. However, it makes the native slower in speech and vulnerable to depression.

I observe that any placement has the potential for both positive and negative effects. Usually both can be observed, to one degree or another. Humans are complex beings! I agree with you, however, that the cosmic state makes some difference here. Even though I know charts where the cosmic state of a planet according to traditional rules doesn't seem in line with the native's skills and achievements.

On the other hand, well-placed benefics may not have setbacks; I still have to research this.

Albeit there is a grain of truth in this, I do think this is an oversimplification.

By the way, a Saturn in the 12th is not well-placed, from my point of view. It is above average at best, when it happens to be of the sect in favour, in its own domicile/exaltation and is supported by a sectmate and/or benefics.

Wouldn't Saturn be quite well-placed in his "joy"? Provided other factors don't counteract this.

Also, happiness in the Aristotelian sense (which may be what Valens meant by "happiness" in Book 2) is not merely a feeling good about one's life, but rather also about doing what one is ordained to do effectively.

Which would make one feel good!

It is human flourishing, and in a sense it is like the self-actualisation part of Maslow's motivation theory. Now, if the monk does his job well AND feels good about his life, then I'd say that he is "happy".

I'd say happiness comes mostly from doing something you enjoy doing since this shows that you are acting in harmony with your soul.

Maslow would probably question whether a monk can actually be self-actualised; given his solitude and possibly chastity, he may not be fulfilling his love and belonging needs.

Good argument. We will probably need to talk to monks about this.

Nonetheless, one can argue that he can fulfill that to a reasonable extent by being in the company of other monks.

Well, yeah, one hears all kinds of stories about monasteries...


Muchacho,

Thanks a lot for your extensive Abraham quotes. They're really interesting. It will take me a little time to compose the reply all of this merits.

Michael

Muchacho and others,

A few ideas that occurred to me by way of sudden inspiration.


Part 1

The Law of Attraction is the Supreme Law in the system of physical reality. But there is no contradiction to Astrology.

A lot of misunderstanding is due to the idea of the celestial bodies somehow governing individuals externally. A horoscope chart is not what you have. It's what you are. And also what you could be.

Your natal chart is imprinted in the filigree network of your subtle bodies. This way it attracts certain experiences to you - and repels others. Remember, your subtle bodies are identically you, on etheric levels.

Astrological directions of any kind are nothing but the dynamics of your own evolution.

What you make out of all this is up to you.

Have fun!

Michael


Edit:

Part 2

Astrology's practical value lies most of all in confirming our hopes and dreams as what they generally are - our true potential.

We are evolving now along the lines inherent to us. We do so freely, not bound by anything but ourselves.

Psychics could not comment very specifically on astrology so far as a rule because they were not too familiar with it. Ever the message needs to be written with the vocabulary that is available in the messenger.

The most external astrological influences seem to be transiting planets. But their action is to activate what is innate to us so that evolution can take place. They are in fact part of the Greater You which blends with the Universe. Or in other words...

We are the Stars on Earth.

Michael Sternbach wrote:The way I read you, Fortune is what is sort of bestowed upon us - whereas "Spirit" is that which we create ourselves, that is, by the power of our spiritual creative selves. I'm not sure what free will would have to do with the body. It's in fact often our physical circumstances that are limiting the manifestation of our will. The causa materialis being the only one of the four causes that may defy our self-determination, in Aristotelian theory.

How far does the body influence the soul? I guess it depends a lot on our definition of "soul". If by "soul" we mean the mind or the psyche in general, then the body certainly can have an influence on it. Whether you do an hour of hatha yoga or ingest a Long Island Ice Tea - the physically induced effects on your psyche should be evident!

The "body" not only has to do with the physical body we have, but also the physical environment we find ourselves in. So yes, it is often our physical circumstances that limits our conscious choices. But even the physical body is fate-like. Our physical appearance, our height, our weight, our body shapes, our susceptibility to certain illnesses (due to DNA and what not), the illnesses or defects we are born with, etc. Many of these things are already present in our lives without our own intervention, and are not changeable without extreme measures.

The "soul" does refer to the mind and its qualities, but also the conscious actions we take, or are capable of taking. Of course the "body" has a strong influence on the "soul". I just said that Fortune and Spirit interact. At the same time, the mind also has a strong effect on the body. Everyone of us here has certain mental habits, and these habits affect the actions we will take in certain situations. Michael for example, seems to be very strong-minded in that he believes that most situations in life can be remedied by our own actions. On the other hand, Larxene is more pessimistic about change. These mental qualities changes the way we live our lives.

To make things more complicated, those mental habits we have may be due to the Fortune factors. Most likely Michael is going to continue thinking the way he does 10 years from now. It's not likely that he will take on Larxene's mental habits, barring any extreme experiences.

Michael Sternbach wrote:Surely we can learn from our experiences and consequently make more conscious choices which lead to better results? In other words: Transform Fortune into Spirit!

Yes we can, and we should, especially with regards to things that are within our control. However, as I said, we are free to choose our actions, but we are not always free to choose the results of those actions. For some things, we may try and try again, with new improvements every time, and yet we do not succeed. That is our fortune. Like myself, I have been trying to learn guitar, but after so many years, I have only made miniscule progress. That is my fortune. I am simply not talented in music.

Michael Sternbach wrote:I observe that any placement has the potential for both positive and negative effects. Usually both can be observed, to one degree or another...

Albeit there is a grain of truth in this, I do think this is an oversimplification.

Indeed, but the benefics' negative effects are often less severe, and sometimes depending on culture, those negative effects are viewed as a positive. Again, the issue of values.

Michael Sternbach wrote:Wouldn't Saturn be quite well-placed in his "joy"? Provided other factors don't counteract this.

Saturn may be in his joy there, but what does "joy" actually mean? It is not yet clear to me how it is to be used. In my opinion, the planet may rejoice, but that doesn't mean the Ascendant will partake in its joy. The 12th is a house inherently injurious to the 1st, although it may benefit the 8th and 4th houses.

Michael Sternbach wrote:

Also, happiness in the Aristotelian sense (which may be what Valens meant by "happiness" in Book 2) is not merely a feeling good about one's life, but rather also about doing what one is ordained to do effectively.

Which would make one feel good!

It is human flourishing, and in a sense it is like the self-actualisation part of Maslow's motivation theory. Now, if the monk does his job well AND feels good about his life, then I'd say that he is "happy".

I'd say happiness comes mostly from doing something you enjoy doing since this shows that you are acting in harmony with your soul.

Not always. Being competent at something doesn't always make you happy, and feeling happy about something doesn't mean you are doing well. Doing something you enjoy CAN indicate that you are acting in harmony with your soul, but at the same time, you may not excel at what you are doing. That is not "happiness", in the Aristotelian sense. A person who watches TV in his free time all day may enjoy his lifestyle, but he isn't achieving anything. In the same way, there are many students who got straight As in school at any given year, but who's to say they enjoyed every subject they studied?

I believe that to be truly happy, we need to do something we enjoy AND excel at the thing we are enjoying.

Michael Sternbach wrote:

Maslow would probably question whether a monk can actually be self-actualised; given his solitude and possibly chastity, he may not be fulfilling his love and belonging needs.

Good argument. We will probably need to talk to monks about this.

Nonetheless, one can argue that he can fulfill that to a reasonable extent by being in the company of other monks.

Well, yeah, one hears all kinds of stories about monasteries...

Yeah, that and the paedobears...

Michael,

Just a few comments:

Michael Sternbach wrote:The Law of Attraction is the Supreme Law in the system of physical reality. But there is no contradiction to Astrology.

Both the physical and non-physical realm are subject to LOA. That's exactly why astrology 'works'. Thoughts and thinking are also subject to LOA.

Michael Sternbach wrote:A lot of misunderstanding is due to the idea of the celestial bodies somehow governing individuals externally. A horoscope chart is not what you have. It's what you are. And also what you could be.

Your natal chart is imprinted in the filigree network of your subtle bodies. This way it attracts certain experiences to you - and repels others. Remember, your subtle bodies are identically you, on etheric levels.

Astrological directions of any kind are nothing but the dynamics of your own evolution.

What you make out of all this is up to you.

The chart is just a map of the territory, not the territory itself. It's just the finger that is pointing to the moon but not the moon itself. The influence of the celestial bodies is probably best understood by using a different model of the cosmos, the Electric Universe.

Michael Sternbach wrote:Astrology's practical value lies most of all in confirming our hopes and dreams as what they generally are - our true potential.

We are evolving now along the lines inherent to us. We do so freely, not bound by anything but ourselves.

Yes. And astrology also shows us what is most natural to us. That's maybe the most important part because from that we can extrapolate everything else. We should also distinguish between probability and possibility when we talk about potential.

Michael Sternbach wrote:The most external astrological influences seem to be transiting planets. But their action is to activate what is innate to us so that evolution can take place. They are in fact part of the Greater You which blends with the Universe. Or in other words...

We are the Stars on Earth.

Yes, there are different layers to this.

Larxene wrote:

However, as I said, we are free to choose our actions, but we are not always free to choose the results of those actions. For some things, we may try and try again, with new improvements every time, and yet we do not succeed.

Right, but we may succeed eventually, if we persevere. If you try something two to three times, and it still doesn't work, I suggest you try it another way.

That is our fortune. Like myself, I have been trying to learn guitar, but after so many years, I have only made miniscule progress. That is my fortune. I am simply not talented in music.

Well, if you have a true desire to learn guitar, then I think it's indeed a potential your soul wants you to explore. Maybe something is holding you back... You should be able to recognize in your chart both the potential and what is keeping you from manifesting it. Maybe you are too perfectionist? Or you haven't found the teacher, learning method or, possibly, instrument that you really resonate with yet. You may never be able to perform like Jimmy Hendrix but you should be able to draw a lot of personal satisfaction from playing an instrument, if this is what you wish deep inside.

Saturn may be in his joy there, but what does "joy" actually mean? It is not yet clear to me how it is to be used.

Well, to me neither. The concept of "joy" seems to imply that a planet would be well-placed there because it is in a house that is compatible with its own nature. But is this always in line with the native's best interest?

Opinions, traditionalists?

I wrote:

I'd say happiness comes mostly from doing something you enjoy doing since this shows that you are acting in harmony with your soul.

You replied:

Not always. Being competent at something doesn't always make you happy, and feeling happy about something doesn't mean you are doing well. Doing something you enjoy CAN indicate that you are acting in harmony with your soul, but at the same time, you may not excel at what you are doing. That is not "happiness", in the Aristotelian sense.

and:

I believe that to be truly happy, we need to do something we enjoy AND excel at the thing we are enjoying.

Dr. Edward Bach, the founder of Bach Flower Therapy, talks in his book Free Thyself about what happiness is and how we typically get conditioned early on in life to keep ourselves from it. To illustrate, he tells the story of a boy who decides to draw a picture of a house as a birthday present for his mother. The boy goes about it full of enthusiasm, puts his heart and soul into his work, and even if the result looks rather like a shack, it's the most perfect house ever drawn; for the child will feel happy about his act of creation, and so will the mother, touched by her son's loving efforts done to the best of his current abilities. This is success and happiness!

Now contrast this with a case in which, alas, another adult happens to watch the boy drawing the picture. Seeing that by any ?objective? standards, it is going to be far from a masterpiece, and with best intentions, he may say things like: ?Why don't you add a window here, and a door there?? etc. With this guidance, the boy may in fact produce a recognizable house. But he may not like the picture as much, because it is not true to the vision he had for it; it's no longer really his own. He may even tear it up eventually, and mum won't get her present any time soon.

A person who watches TV in his free time all day may enjoy his lifestyle, but he isn't achieving anything.

Right, we may actually enjoy doing things that we know are not really good for us.

In the same way, there are many students who got straight As in school at any given year, but who's to say they enjoyed every subject they studied?

Right. Here, obviously, the happiness lies in getting good degrees, while the subject by itself doesn't contribute to our happiness. It's other-directed happiness, in a way.

Muchacho wrote:

Both the physical and non-physical realm are subject to LOA. That's exactly why astrology 'works'. Thoughts and thinking are also subject to LOA.

Surely thoughts also attract other thoughts of a similar nature, as well as matching emotions. What I was referring to is simply that non-physical events (thoughts) tend to attract suitable physical events.

The chart is just a map of the territory, not the territory itself. It's just the finger that is pointing to the moon but not the moon itself. The influence of the celestial bodies is probably best understood by using a different model of the cosmos, the Electric Universe.

I don't see the "Electric Universe" model as something separate from astrology. An understanding of the universe in terms of subtle forces is in fact at astrology's core.

According to ancient occult lore, an individual's spiritual essence abides in etheric dimensions connected to the stars and planets in-between physical incarnations on Earth - acquiring the material of the subtle (astral!) bodies it is going to inhabit. See "The Seven Bodies of Man in Hermetic Astrology" by Denis Labour?.
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/7bodies.html

When the macrocosm as understood in astrology is in harmony with what it has assimilated in its astral sojourns, the soul will manifest itself in microcosmic human existence anew. More modern occultists like Rudolf Steiner, Edgar Cayce and E. H. Bailey upheld this, too.

We should also distinguish between probability and possibility when we talk about potential.

That sounds interesting - albeit I'm not sure how exactly you would differentiate between the two. According to Hugh Everett's many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics everything that conceivably could happen actually does happen on some level. However, I think that the quality of time as studied by astrology narrows down (to some extent) what is inherent to any given moment. In fact, physicist David Bohm believed that there is a hidden ?implicate order? underlying actual events.

Already someone wrote, is not necessarily a bad 12 houses

highlighted 12 is find a psychologist and similar professions that explore the psyche.

The question is what is bad chart?

In which a way to recognize a bad chart?

in what sense a bad chart? Health meaning? psychological meaning? risk of traffic? risk of injury?

lots of possibilities ... and each of these options can be treated as "bad chart"

Of course you should be careful to warn if you're sure what you see in the chart, in the opposite better to say nothing

For this reason it is necessary to have a lot of experience in order to recognize the "bad" chart

first- necessary to recognize the essential point Natal there is a health issue or problems injury or any threat if they are not attacked Moon or sun or ruler of Asc.
or their dispositors or planet in the Ascendant.

second - two heavy aspect on the essential points of Natal can easily create problems, especially if it is associated with "health" houses 8 and 12, or has to do with the 3 house

But there is a problem for those who do not observe Ur Ne Pl

Third -for psychological problems do not have to always be emphasized 12 house.
Heavy are those natal chart with contradictions within the basic structure, where a person tear apart himself

So if you do not sure, say nothing

especially ethically forbidden forecast declared as inevitable. Thereby causes direct damage for persons