Konrad wrote:

But that pattern doesn't follow in 2002 (they didn't qualify) nor 1990 (went out in the last 16).

Damn! Another astrological theory shot down in flames! I would need to study the chart more closely.

Still, I am convinced national charts are a valuable tool in this area. Its just deciding which one that is most radical that is the tricky bit. Keeping it simple maybe the unique factor this year is that Jupiter and Saturn are both in water signs? (not for you of course!)

Mark

Mark wrote:Konrad wrote:

But that pattern doesn't follow in 2002 (they didn't qualify) nor 1990 (went out in the last 16).

Damn! Another astrological theory shot down in flames! I would need to study the chart more closely. Maybe the unique factor here is both Jupiter and Saturn in water signs? (Not for you of course!)

Mark

No, not for me, but I don't use elements with my Trigons anyway.

Out of interest, what are you looking at in the national charts (and Ingresses?) for sporting competitions? I'm sure it means a lot to the common people that Holland won, so the Moon? Would something of this nature come under the 10th house though? It seems rather trivial when compared to governmental elections and the dethronement of kings that would be associated with that house normally.

I'm not sure that my judgements will extend correctly to three major football games in the same day.

However, a fav team of mine (after England and Canada) is Chile, a team i fancy to get to at least the 1/4 finals. I love their flamboyant attacking flair.

But the Aussies will win this one 1-0. Moon L7 on ASC - or at least they'll win by 1 goal - but hey, i;m a little pushed - and no expert by anyone's standards

EDIT: This could be slaughter !

But to answer your questions concerning the Spain Holland game in one fell swoop. Some times the astrology of the situation is beyond comprehension for the human being and beyond reason and logic as we understand it. At times she revels herself in the most simple and subtle way, so obvious at times that we fail to notice. Do any of you really feel that mastery can be obtained by the maths and physics and whatever other measure one can think of, of something that is inherently elusive and difficult to comprehend without the consideration of intuition, instinct or emotional awareness? Astrology is more than a simple stat dump. Although, I would like to add that the work here is excellent and I've followed it with great interest. But it would be nice to see some intuitive consideration, which I think is lacking at times. So what if you get a result wrong? The important issue is that you've followed your nose, so to speak. And that is surely the best way to collect data and to analysis it. If you disagree with that concept, that's fine. But you'll be doing not only yourself, but others and above all, astrology a great disservice.

Mark wrote:What about longer term trends like Jupiter through the signs? For example, have the Netherlands performed any better in Tournaments when Jupiter was going through their sign of Cancer like in this Tournament? If this traditional association has any worth it should surely be a boost for them.

Sorry for not following you up on this immediately, Mark. In my opinion there are several ways in which it could work. In my 1986 chart while studying Olivia Barclay's course Jupiter in Pisces was the significator that showed the winner of the tournement. Jupiter was dignified in his own sign Pisces and cast his ANTISCIA to the ascendant in LIBRA. Hence, Argentina, ruled by Libra, was the winner. Link to the chart: (here)

Naturally, Jupiter passing through a sign could prove a testimony for countries represented by that sign, i.e. Cancer is the Netherlands, but then Jupiter is also the natual significator of Spain, through Sagittarius, or Portugal, through Pisces. The general rule, however, is that because Jupiter is in Cancer he is in a feminine sign and this is rather like having the boot on the wrong foot as far as Spain is concerned. I did actually have incidences like this with clients and it proved that the person represented was left-handed. So a planet in a feminine sign will first tend to represent and signify nations represented by it's feminine sign or domicile. This can give quite striking results. I hope that is response to your question and its great to have you on our World Cup team!

Nice to see the interesting posts here. I've always thought football should be the perfect testing ground for astrological prediction, with its unequivocal results and huge history of data available.
Are there any studies that show a consistently successful technique, say for previous World Cup tournaments? I remember analysing some predictions made in an entertaining little magazine called (I think)"The Astrologer's Apprentice" a few years back for one of the World Cups but they turned out no better than chance.

Nathan wrote:But to answer your questions concerning the Spain Holland game in one fell swoop. Some times the astrology of the situation is beyond comprehension for the human being and beyond reason and logic as we understand it. At times she revels herself in the most simple and subtle way, so obvious at times that we fail to notice. Do any of you really feel that mastery can be obtained by the maths and physics and whatever other measure one can think of, of something that is inherently elusive and difficult to comprehend without the consideration of intuition, instinct or emotional awareness? Astrology is more than a simple stat dump. Although, I would like to add that the work here is excellent and I've followed it with great interest. But it would be nice to see some intuitive consideration, which I think is lacking at times. So what if you get a result wrong? The important issue is that you've followed your nose, so to speak. And that is surely the best way to collect data and to analysis it. If you disagree with that concept, that's fine. But you'll be doing not only yourself, but others and above all, astrology a great disservice.

To my mind, this is the crux of the matter - given all the various different ways of considering a chart, is the art of astrology primarily a lens for filtering our intuitive intelligence, or are there some hard & fast rules that a computer program could follow to predict the outcome of a match? (If the latter, why has no-one written it?!)

Hi Andrew,

Sorry for not following you up on this immediately, Mark.

I don?t think my post was important enough to require that speedy a response! I am really just a dabbler here. I can see many other people here have been incredibly hard working on predicting these results. I only take an interest in football charts at the World Cup or Euros. Club football just doesn?t interest me. So I only come out of football hibernation every few years.

Andrew Bevan wrote:

Naturally, Jupiter passing through a sign could prove a testimony for countries represented by that sign, i.e. Cancer is the Netherlands, but then Jupiter is also the natual significator of Spain, through Sagittarius, or Portugal, through Pisces. The general rule, however, is that because Jupiter is in Cancer he is in a feminine sign and this is rather like having the boot on the wrong foot as far as Spain is concerned. I did actually have incidences like this with clients and it proved that the person represented was left-handed. So a planet in a feminine sign will first tend to represent and signify nations represented by it's feminine sign or domicile. This can give quite striking results. I hope that is response to your question and its great to have you on our World Cup team!

Yes this makes sense. Another traditional reason Jupiter is not working for Spain is that it is inconjunct/in aversion to Sagittarius at present while in the sign of Cancer. On the other hand it is in trine to Pisces so it will be interesting to see how Portugal fares. Not least as Saturn is in Scorpio so obviously trine the water triplicity right now.

I was reading a post from the old World Cup thread from 2010 where Ficina mentioned that in Horse racing some astrologers use the Moon as a significator for the favourite. Is that something people ever look at in football charts? It certainly seemed appropriate last night.

Maybe this idea doesn't really fly for Football charts consistently though. I was just interested what others thought.

Mark

John wrote:

Dare I say it, three predictions and three correct outcomes!!!

Congratulations John!

I will be studying your future predictions here with great interest.

Mark

GB said

Spain v Netherlands, what did I miss? The draw was tempting, particularly with the shared triplicity mentioned above, but I can't see 1 - 5 for Netherlands in the chart.

I think this is exactly the sort of result we need to find a good

My thoughts exactly. I went back to my notes. Both teams had moderately positive astrological situations but neither were without obstacles. ( I suppose that was true in that both did score... but hardly sums up what happened!). I suppose to that in hindsight ( so easy with that eh?!) Jupiter exactly trine country Mercury & Pluto could mean harnessing power to score a big tally.

However there was one interesting fact. The match ascendant exactly corresponded with Netherlands' Uranus. The match MC was also conjunct NL's IC. So something dramatic could happen - but I wouldn't have necessarily associated this with NL success. - it could equally have been disruption to the match or sending off of a key NL player. But because of this I will be watching NL next 2 matches to see whether it was a freak event due to this one off aspect.

Just returned from my country, so I did not have time to reconsider the charts and provide more extensive analysis. I just made an attempt to provoke the folk to come out with straightforward predictions rather than generalizations.

If it had been club soccer, I would have gone for the underdog. In international soccer, it is a little bit tricky. We should consider mundane astrology as well, for the national teams represent also entire countries, in particular in big tournaments. Color method is not enough.

First, congratulations to John who was the first who picked the Netherlands.




My first impression was the underdog. Then caution unfortunately took the upper hand. I obviously underrated the Netherlands.

I do not place much confidence in transits, progressions, and other stuff to national charts. I am convinced that the event chart is that matters and provides the answer why.

Well, from mundane perspective, we had Sagittarius (Spain) ASC with Jupiter in the 8th from it. Jupiter's dispositor Moon was in Jupiter's fall from where she perfected here opposition with Mercury in Cancer (Holland). Bad receptions between the significator and its dispositor always harms significator in particular if the team is a favourite. On underdogs it has no devastating effect.

I have said it many times that the rule is the more the roles a planet has in the chart the stronger is its effect on the outcome (for better or worse).

Here the planet who received the Moon's application was Mercury, ruler of hour, POF, the 10th and 7th. Then we look at receptions between Mercury and the significator. The Spain is known as Red Fury (Mars). Mars is their primary significator and Jupiter, their sign ruler in Cancer, in the sign of Mars fall, is of little help to the Red Fury.

If we look at the receptions, we see that Mercury (with so many roles in the chart) is in fall of Mars. It definitely harms Mars if he is the sig of favourite; for huge underdog we would judge the opposite considering that Mars is in the stake of Cancer in Libra.

Always look at the receptions (good or bad) between the planet who receives the Moon's application and the significator. If the reception is bad it harms the favourite. Regarding huge underdogs, good reception is always good, bad reception is neutral or good if the significator is in the stakes of the planet receiving the Moon's application. These rules are well tested and will not fail.

As regards mundane astrology in soccer charts, I suggest monitoring such things as the natural sign rising in the event chart, or the 10th or 11th sign from the natural sign is on the event ASC. These must be positive indications if natural sign is a correct one. The Moon's transits through natural signs are also important, more important are the Moon's ingresses in natural signs.

amelia wrote:The match ascendant exactly corresponded with Netherlands' Uranus. The match MC was also conjunct NL's IC.

I had not thought to look at the match chart angles in relation to the country charts. I have not had chance to look at this in detail as yet, but today's match between Colombia and Greece ended 3 - 0 for Colombia. Not unexpected, as Colombia were favourites.

Using Nick Campion's Book of World Horoscopes, Colombia has natal Venus at 11CP57 closely squared by the match Asc (11LI28). Greece has Saturn at 11CN22 again squared by the match Asc. So, the Asc highlights Colombia's Venus and Greece's Saturn.

Perhaps worth watching.