Skyscript Astrology Forum

Not to divert your Angular discussion here but I think there is many more factors to consider.
First, in a natal chart, a cadent (or succedent) planet being promoted to Angularity does not make it more expressive but more prominent for good or bad.
Second, I would look at the 'condition' of this planet (dasas, rulership, aspects and so on)
Third, what 'period' is the planet transiting from whatever starting point you choose.

Every astrologer post their personal interpretation of Ingresses or Lunations (and I include myself in it) but they rarely come back to see if what they were saying held the road.
Checking what happened and 'going back' like you do here seems a fairly good approach to validate whatever theory you come up with.

Blessings,
Ouranos

Atlantean wrote:

I did the Monthly Ingress charts for the Hiroshima Bombing
Krishnamurti: Pluto and Mercury, with Pluto less than a degree off the Asc

For the Newark Explosion of an oil tank farm. (Jan 7, 1983)
Sagittarius Ingress
Krishnamurti: Uranus, Jupiter, Pluto, and Mars

Port of Beirut explosion. (Aug 4, 2020)
Cancer Ingress
Krishnamurti: Mars, Saturn, Pluto, Jupiter, Sun

Marjory Stoneman Douglas shooting (Feb 14, 2018)
Aquarius Ingress
Krishnamurti: Saturn, Neptune, and a Moon-Pluto conjunction (0° 11')

Edmond Post Office shooting (Aug 20, 1986)
Leo Ingress
Krishnamurti: Pluto, Sun, and a tight Moon-Mars conjunction (~1°)

DuPont Powder Mill explosion (Mar 11, 1911)
Aquarius Ingress
Krishnamurti: Pluto (PVL)

I have to put in a plug for my favorite psychic:

“Pluto and Vulcan are one and the same.??? (Edgar Cayce reading 826-8-)

“In the influences that bring for warnings, as seen in Mars and Vulcan [Pluto]–beware of fire, and especially of firearms, or explosives...as powders and such elements...These may bring destructive influences.??? (EC reading 1735-2)

Therese Hamilton wrote:I meant whatever house system an astrologer happened to be using that would keep the Moon some distance from the ascendant.

Yes, I understood that. Perhaps I was a little too brief in my reply (it was getting late in Scandinavia, and I was just about to log off). What I meant was that houses are primarily based on the cycle of rising, culminating and setting, although aspect relationships come into their meanings as well. There may perhaps be a difference between a rising planet that is in the same sign as the ascendant and one that isn't, although I would then expect that difference to be noticeable even between planets that are in the first 'ecliptical' (or 'two-dimensional') house.

If we reverse the scenario and assign the Moon great northern latitude, its actual body would be well into the 12th house by the time its ecliptical degree was rising. I would expect that degree still to be imbued to some extent with lunar qualities (just like the ecliptical degrees aspected by the Moon with major aspects); but I would not expect the areas signified or ruled by the Moon to be, in Ouranos's phrase, as 'prominent for good or bad' as if the Moon itself were on the horizon.

Sorry to be derailing this thread.

Re: "Not to divert your Angular discussion here but I think there is many more factors to consider."

Yes, there are certainly many other paths we could follow in trying to do this comparison. The problem is...the more "extras" we add in, the less obvious it is, the more detailed each analysis must be, and the more we introduce (to some) questionable factors. If we were following house rulership networks, for instance, this would quickly devolve into an interpretational nightmare. The angularity cuts right to the chase IN TERMS OF FINDING THE AYANAMSA, since angularity of appropriate planets is a hallmark of these techniques.

In other words, I agree, there are 1000 different ways we could be doing this, but we're not reading the chart to extract the last drop, we're quickly surveying "does Fagan-Bradley or Krishnamurti appear to have proper planets angular, taking into account the Moon, since its aspects are quite different between the two"???

Re: "First, in a natal chart, a cadent (or succedent) planet being promoted to Angularity does not make it more expressive but more prominent for good or bad."

Unless I'm missing something by the semantics you've used, I see it differently. To me, angularity makes planets "more in evidence," "more obvious," and does not fundamentally change the nature of the planet, nor deviate from what that planet means, relative to the chart.

If a grand cross' planets are far away from the angles, that grand cross is still active in the life, but it might be as if it's partially hidden behind litmus. Once that grand cross becomes angular, whatever that grand cross means will be as obvious in the life and to others, as if it was monogrammed on his shirt.

Re: "Checking what happened and 'going back' like you do here seems a fairly good approach to validate whatever theory you come up with."

Yes, since these are major events in history, we have access to the information relating to what happened, so that it's easier to judge if the symbolism is correct. If a transport train got stuck in a tunnel, catches on fire, and half the inhabitants died from smoke inhalation, the ingress highlighting Neptune will gain in weighting, because the symbolism matches the details of the event.

I can't think of a better, CLEAR-CUT, way to compare the ayanamsas than pretty much what we are doing, ASSUMING THERE ACTUALLY IS ANYTHING TO MONTHLY INGRESSES and it appears so far, that there certainly is...

I noted since Martin moved the ayanamsa posts to a new topic that I was no longer 'watching' this topic. So we have to re-register our request on this topic as our 'watch this topic' is attached to the ayanamsa topic.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11556

Amidst the new information regarding the KP ayanamsa: Whatever the source of the value of the Krishnamurti ayanamsa (as used in Solar Fire and the Swiss ephemeris), it is giving very interesting results in Atlantean's research. Also it has become standardized in software for many years. So it appears that we can continue to use that value for the foreseeable future, just as we can continue to use the standard FB (SVP) ayanamsa which on investigation can be questioned as to its source.

Atlantean, in the meantime, I hope that you will continue with your research as it is so interesting in light of the ayanamsa dilemma.

1975 Banqiao Dam failure (Aug 7, 1975)

Cancer Ingress

Fagan-Bradley: none

Krishnamurti: Neptune (and 0° 7' sq Asc), Venus

Neptune is perfect for hurricanes/typhoons (in this case, Typhoon Nina). Neptune and Venus together, correct for mourning loved ones. (up to a quarter million dead from drowning!)

Hands down, Krishnamurti

Monthly Ingress
Scorekeeper: FB: 2, Kr: 14


Saudi Arabia Airlines Flight 163 (Aug 19, 1980)

Leo Ingress

Fagan-Bradley: Venus , no Moon aspects

Krishnamurti: Saturn, Venus, Moon conjunct (Mars-Pluto)

The plane was on fire and was able to land; but the pilot didn't stop and evacuate and instead, taxied off the runway. By this time, all the passengers were unconscious and couldn't open the emergency exits and had all suffocated, by the time the cabin was breached. Shortly thereafter, the entire plane went up in flames. Saturn for the depressing event and property damage and Moon conjunct Mars-Pluto for the fire and devastation.

Monthly Ingress
Scorekeeper: FB: 2, Kr: 15

Re: "Atlantean, in the meantime, I hope that you will continue with your research as it is so interesting in light of the ayanamsa dilemma."

Thank you, though it doesn't appear to be much of a dilemma.


Pan Am 103 - Lockerbie (Dec 21, 1988)

Sagittarius Ingress

Fagan-Bradley: Sun, Moon square Sun

Krishnamurti: Uranus, Neptune, Saturn, Mercury, Sun

Uranus is correct for the airplane and especially the explosion, Neptune for the subterfuge (terrorist), Saturn for the property damage, and Neptune-Mercury for smoke in the air. It's basically all there!

Monthly Ingress
Scorekeeper: FB: 2, Kr: 16

Atlantean wrote:

Therese wrote:
Re: "Atlantean, in the meantime, I hope that you will continue with your research as it is so interesting in light of the ayanamsa dilemma."

Atlantean wrote:
Thank you, though it doesn't appear to be much of a dilemma. Wink

Atlantean, you must realize that you are doing something that has never been done before in the astrological world: Actually finding supporting evidence for the value of an ayanamsa, using a technique that anyone can easily duplicate. The precise to-the-second value of this KP ayanamsa has been the subject of controversy, testing and debate among KP practitioners according to AJ who has been extensively researching the history of this ayanamsa. BUT...the important aspect of this debate is that there are apparently only 15 arc seconds between the original KP value in Solar Fire and the Swiss ephemeris and the now standard 'accepted' New KP value.

So are we really approaching a time when we can with certainty work toward a precise to-the-second correct ayanamsa value? At least initially it appears to be a possibility with the future help of computers!

Atlantean, are you registered on the Soluars site? I thought I vaguely remembered that you had been using the FB ayanamsa? Is anyone from Solunars watching your research here on Skyscript?

I want to post some notes on the origin of the FB ayanamsa, but the Houck/KP topic might be a better place for that data. Right now, almost midnight, I'm exhausted as I've been away from home today.

Re: "Atlantean, are you registered on the Solunars site?"

Yes, I was on there for awhile, showing some not-so-mainstream techniques for those that were interested. (Age Harmonics, functioning Primary Directions, harmonic midpoints, vernal point tricks ) Though some were intently interested and began experimenting themselves on their own data (ie. SCIENCE!) and responded with wonder with how well the techniques were working for them, most were not interested in anything that wasn't already included with the ready-to-ship product, Sidereal astrology.

Additionally, discussions there are somewhat prevented from being organic. ie. if you answer a direct question from someone, but reference some other technique, your answer has to be filed only under that technique, not along with the original comment that inspired the response. (counter-intuitive and proscribes any direct comparison of technique, since each technique is relatively sand-boxed)

An analogy in case it's not clear what I mean....

Thread question: What time is it?

Answer: It's 15:30.

End result? Your 15:30 answer is deleted and you are publicly reminded that all Times are to be given with the 12-hour clock and those that are in military time, must be posted in the topic on military time, not in the thread where someone wondered what time it is!!!

Games (that at least seem silly, regardless of their grounds) were often fun when I was younger... now, not so much!

So, I find Solunars perfectly organized and at the same time, extremely limiting towards anything that hasn't in some way been said by Cyril Fagan or Donald Bradley before.

I wish them great success, but it's the last place I'd go if I were looking for progressive thought. (I heard everything there is based on something read from a mummy's tomb.) LMAO!

I'm much more interested in trial-by-fire than driven-by-opinion.

Where are we now with the Fagan-Bradley vs Krishnamurti ayanamsa?

Oh yeah, FB: 2, Kr: 16. Perhaps they read the wrong tomb or misunderstood it.

In Solunars defense, there are great references there...Jim is extremely helpful to those seeking info etc. relating to Sidereal astrology. For those wishing to bring something new/different for public consumption, it's a mostly closed door. If you do manage to get a foot in the door, some there will try to break your foot off in the door, while slamming it. Again, in Jim's defense, it's his site...he certainly has the Right to do what he wants with it. Since he's (imo) narrowly constrained in promoting Sidereal astrology, the few people that would open-mindedly entertain new techniques, and even moreso the smaller percentage of those people that would actually use and benefit from something new are not worth the amount of time/energy that would be spent presenting it. In other words, noting my exceptional singing voice , but noting that most of the audience has become at least partially deaf, I'll save my vocal cords.

Atlantean wrote:

In Solunars defense, there are great references there...Jim is extremely helpful to those seeking info etc. relating to Sidereal astrology. For those wishing to bring something new/different for public consumption, it's a mostly closed door. If you do manage to get a foot in the door, some there will try to break your foot off in the door, while slamming it. Again, in Jim's defense, it's his site...he certainly has the Right to do what he wants with it.

It's kind of sad, though. Here is some new research that everyone should be jumping on, but the very small FB Sidereal community remains in its self imposed ivory tower apart from what is happening in the 21st century.

We know from modern academic research that there are no Mesopotamian documents that list longitudes for Aldebaran and Antares. The FB people wanted those two stars to mark 15 degrees of Taurus and Scorpio. We now have three very specific star longitudes that marked the beginnings of zodiac signs. Two of these align with the KP zodiac, and one is a dead ringer for FB. As the ancients couldn't see the entire sky at once, they didn't realize there weren't precisely 30 degree multiples between zodiac entry stars.

The valuable FB solar and lunar return techniques will remain in use, but if I had to make a prediction, 20 years from now the FB ayanamsa will be only a blip in the history books as it has never been really tested with modern techniques. It gives very poor results in the navamsa chart and other Indian divisional charts. It seems it's mainly the so-called 'Vedic' community that will carry on work in the sidereal zodiac.

How about volcanic eruptions? Do we have some ingress charts for those? These days we are seeing massive flooding in different parts of the globe. So water disasters are another fertile research area. The problem is that often flooding covers large areas, so what do we do about choosing an ingress location?

Hello Therese,

Re: "It's kind of sad, though. Here is some new research that everyone should be jumping on, but the very small FB Sidereal community remains in its self imposed ivory tower apart from what is happening in the 21st century."

Well, if they're basing everything on mummy tomb inscriptions, it does show perhaps an unhealthy adherence to the past. lol The part I don't understand, is that most astrologers seem to be progressive and generally "on the hunt" for methods that work. Anyone demonstrating "outside" ideas, should at least be heard. Doesn't mean any particular astrologer has to adopt any techniques or change anything, but at least being open to the evidence is what is being asked for... Having found Age Harmonics an incredibly reliable technique (when the correct birthtime is used), I had a feeling I was in for a bumpy ride on that forum, when Jim mentioned that his survey of Age Harmonics was relatively lackluster. (paraphrasing) My experience studying thousands of events has been that they are anything but lackluster.

I don't mean anecdotal evidence like, my Grandfather (adoptive Father) dies as a Saturn-MC Age Harmonic exactly forms (true); I mean for every event analyzed, finding extremely appropriate astrological indicators over and over and over again. If it's so blatantly obvious, why can some not see? [None are so blind as those who choose not to see.]

Re: "We know from modern academic research that there are no Mesopotamian documents that list longitudes for Aldebaran and Antares..."

These philosophical or even actual underpinnings (to me!) are of the 2nd priority. First priority is always "does it work and how well?" ie. how EXACT is it, and how RELIABLE is it? Everything else is everything ELSE. [I do find it interesting, but it doesn't enter into the evaluation, which is relatively mutually exclusive to its history... I know you know what I mean...]

Re: "The valuable FB solar and lunar return techniques will remain in use, but if I had to make a prediction, 20 years from now the FB ayanamsa will be only a blip in the history books as it has never been really tested with modern techniques."

That's hard to say, as the allegiance to the group-think is extremely strong. Certainly, if the Krishnamurti ayanamsa out-performed Fagan-Bradly, using the techniques that the FB school are using, then it would be just idiocy to hold onto the less-accurate model out of some loyalty.

Re; "It gives very poor results in the navamsa chart and other Indian divisional charts. It seems it's mainly the so-called 'Vedic' community that will carry on work in the sidereal zodiac."

I accept that as potentially true, since I have very little experience with vedic methodology. I studied it briefly, but just never really gelled with it. These ingress methods appear to be giving valid charts, so definitely it appears this technique (already) should be added as a potential technique for all people studying mundane astrology, even if from the Western/tropical camp.

Re: "How about volcanic eruptions? Do we have some ingress charts for those? These days we are seeing massive flooding in different parts of the globe. So water disasters are another fertile research area. The problem is that often flooding covers large areas, so what do we do about choosing an ingress location?"

For a volcano, there's usually a specific starting point (ie. well-defined in time, due to seismic measurement) and often the exact latitude and longitude are given, making them (also) ideal for testing these techniques.

I guess, now I'm taking requests... lol (but happily so, only pretend complaining)

I'm glad you found/find some value in this "study." To me, it's a blind experiment since I'm randomly grabbing events and presenting them. ie. relatively scientific

I do realize that the small numer (18 currently) is such a small sample that it would be considered anecdotal, however; anecdotal as it may be, Krishnamurti is working relatively reliably and FB appears to be working at chance or worse and that is concerning.

Mount Tambora eruption (Apr 10, 1815)

Pisces Ingress

Fagan-Bradley: Saturn

Krishnamurti: Uranus

Based on two reasonings, 1) for volcanoes the found angularity goes Mars -> Uranus -> Mercury -> Sun -> Saturn, so that Uranus is more often found; ...and more immediately-relevant is 2) for a sudden, explosive event, Uranus is closer thematically than Saturn is; therefore I have to give this one to Krishnamurti. There is a Moon-Venus conjunction in Krishnamurti that seems out of place.

Monthly Ingress
Scorekeeper: FB: 2, Kr: 17