MarkC wrote: Not necessarily if two people ( or three !) discover the comet. This happens quite a lot in astronomy. Looking at the 'Great Comets' of the last 100 years many have more than one astronomer (and location) attached to their discovery

Well, I don't know in that case.

In every case to me Aquarius fits for this comet and not just because I wrote like that, but because the last eclipse before that the comet was brilliant in the sky was in Aquarius and the last total solar eclipse was the one of the 1st August 2008, with its heart in Russia, which is under Aquarius
there is a strong emphasis about Aquarius which makes me think a little.
But obviously I can be wrong, we will see if something will happen in France or Italy for example, which are both under Leo.

In particular, where are the charts located? Are the astrologers like Cardano etc simply placing the chart in their own location and drawing up houses for their country from that? So like an Ingress chart should a lunation chart be erected in various locations to obtain where its impact is greatest in the world?

Cardano says that in Haly chart "the conjunction fell in the angle of that region, according its main city Alforat in Egypt"
And Lilly says that he was following Longomontanus who was studying the comet of 1618 in Denmark, but I don't know for which place he was casting the chart.
And the same does Brahe, he does not mention the place obviously but more or less it coincides with his observatory, I re-cast the chart.

I don' t think they cast several charts; in my opinion they just considered where the sizygy fell and where the comet was in the chart.

Another question is about plotting comets on to a lunation chart. I see from the chart you displayed Tycho Brahe plotted the position of the Nova of 1572 on to his horoscope. In the examples you have studied was the same ever done for comets ? If so how was their movement across the heavens incorporated into an astrological delineation?

Brahe did not put the star in longitude, I'm sure because he says the star is Taurus, but then he puts near the MC in the first degree of Aries, he says it is culminating. But then considers both Aries and Taurus and places under these signs. And places which have the same latitude (62 degree) as the declination of the star.
And Kepler did not cast the chart, he used the Great conjunction and the position of the star.

It would be very interesting to see how Tycho Brahe delineated the great comet of 1577. I am still unclear whether Brahe's prediction of a great military commander coming from the far north ( generally linked to Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden b 1594 ? d 1632) appeared in his astrological writing on the Nova of 1572 or the Comet of 1577?

The effects of both were entwined, but a comet is a comet as many, a stella nova was impossible for Aristotelian cosmos, so Brahe should take it into consideration, no?
I cannot find the story of Gustavus Adolphus nowhere. Brahe says there will be a great change
In my opinion these kind of prophecies, Campanella (he has his about the supernova) Keplero, Lilly, Brahe, Leovitius, did these prophecies with the stencil- we say like that in Italy. And moreover they copied one from the another without quoting the source and just changing the date.
With some insight Martin Luther called them astrologi hallucinati
There is a vaste literature on this subject.
Anyway I could be wrong. I have not any pretence of truth, obviously.

p.s. In every case I can't take into consideration what you wrote about Roma , even a great astrologer like Manilius says that Rome keeps the Libra to give protection and peace to all the world

Margherita

In every case to me Aquarius fits for this comet and not just because I wrote like that, but because the last eclipse before that the comet was brilliant in the sky was in Aquarius and the last total solar eclipse was the one of the 1st August 2008, with its heart in Russia, which is under Aquarius. There is a strong emphasis about Aquarius which makes me think a little. But obviously I can be wrong, we will see if something will happen in France or Italy for example, which are both under Leo.

Fantastic visual. How did you create that?

Its not as if Lulin ever became really bright so the discovery pre-lunation sounds fine to work with. The eclipse is a good point too mention as well as it backs up the Aquarian connection. While we are on the subject what is your main source for astrological signs and countries? I think I can guess...Ptolemy? Just wondering as nations and borders have changed so much since his time.

Still, it did become visible (well in a dim kind of way) in Virgo. Using the comets point of visibility rather than its discoverty by telescope appears more traditional approach to me. The new moon at 25th of February therefore fulfills this pre-lunation criteria. At this point the comet will be placed in Virgo. Anton Grigoryev quotes Campanella who refers to Abu?l Hasan Ali ibn Ridwan Al-Misri:

Haly observs the very beginning of a comet, if it can be known, or the place where it is at the first conjunction or opposition of the luminaries after its appearence, if impossible to get the beginning

.

It will be a good practical test of these competing approaches will be to see whether the Virgo or Aquarius association of this comet is more correct.

I don' t think they cast several charts; in my opinion they just considered where the sizygy fell and where the comet was in the chart.

I accept you are only telling me what the sources state. I dont want to kill the messenger as we say. Still, I confess I am confused when you state

they just considered where the sizygy fell

You state you dont think this was erected as a fresh chart for each location. However, surely the sizygy is global? In which case why accept a chart cast in say Denmark for England? I am not arguing with what you are stating rather simply trying to properly understand the logic behind the astrological technique of a pre-lunation chart for comets. If we look at Ingress charts as a comparison there is no problem about casting each chart by location so I dont understand why this logical approach was not applied to pre-lunation charts too.

MarkC wrote:
I accept you are only telling me what the sources state. I dont want to kill the messenger as we say.

???!!! I hope not.

You state you dont think this was erected as a fresh chart for each location. However, surely the sizygy is global?

Well, it's global in the sense the Sun and the Moon are in a certain sign and the same the comet, so we can take the countries under that sign. And yes, I take locations from Ptolemy, but I have even Teucer list in Rethorius. But I believe places are from Rethorius (how Teucer could mention Ptolemy? It's impossible) Cardano gives another list in Aphorisms, I guess it should be the same as Ptolemy. But Cardano mentions cities too...

But I'm NOT saying that we don't need the location. We need because we should check the angles.
The point is this, I agree with you, we need a chart but we don't know which location we should use, so it seems to me that everybody takes his own.

In which case why accept a chart cast in say Denmark for England?

We can't.

If we look at Ingress charts as a comparison there is no problem about casting each chart by location so I dont understand why this logical approach was not applied to pre-lunation charts too.

I believe this is not the point. When we cast an Ingress because we want to know how will be this quarter of this year in our country or in another country, we cast the chart for the nation we are interested in.
If I want to know how it will be the year for Italy, I cast the chart for Rome, it's easy.

Here we want to see where the comet - but it could be the great conjunction or the eclipse- will have its effects. We don't know a priori.
The visibility could be a possibility for a comet or an eclipse, but in every case we have the same many countries. Let's say an eclipse or a comet is visible in Europe, then what you do? In which of these countries the comet or the eclipse will have its greatest effects? This is not an easy problem to solve...

You know, when you cast an eclipse chart after an event, it's easy to have a result, I tried with Ptolemy method and I had astonishing results in a lot of cases, yes, but I already knew where the event fell, so i could easily cast a chart.

In the case of Lulin I swear I have no idea, the discovery seems the easiest solution. But obviously it is not a general answer to the problem, I understand quite well.
Margherita

The point is this, I agree with you, we need a chart but we don't know which location we should use, so it seems to me that everybody takes his own.

Ahhh ok. Fair enough. BTW I slightly edited my post before I saw your reply. You might want check out this.

This is not an easy problem to solve...

So true.

I have basically, come round to the idea of using the full Moon chart for 25th of February. It is interesting that Haly mentions the first lunation after the visual appearance of the comet. This probably explains why Lilly took this approach in the chart you helpfully displayed for us. He appears to have been relying on Haly rather than Ptolemy as his main source.

According to reports on wikipedia the comet became visible to the naked eye observers from dark-sky sites around February 7th.

Therefore using the Full Moon lunation meets Haly's recommended approach although obviously not that of Ptolemy who wouuld have examined the lunation prior to the appearance of the comet. I am content to be pragmatic on this and work with whatever lunation is closest to a comet becoming visible.

A visual approach has always appealed to me so this matches what I always thought. However, if we need one location on earth China seems the right place as the place of discovery. So its a kind of compromise.

And yes, I take locations from Ptolemy, but I have even Teucer list in Rethorius. But I believe places are from Rethorius (how Teucer could mention Ptolemy? It's impossible) Cardano gives another list in Aphorisms, I guess it should be the same as Ptolemy. But Cardano mentions cities too...

I have Ptolemy and Cardano aphorisms. Lilly also lists cities and countries by sign. However, we still await a translation of Rhetorius. I believe this is forthcoming from James Holden and will be very welcome.

Anyway, Margherita, let me thank you for all your very informative replies to my incessant questions. I am most grateful. I dont think I mentioned on this thread I am giving a talk entitled 'The Astrology of Comets' to my local association in a fortnight and now feel much better educated and confident to discuss the traditional approach to delineating comets.

Mark

Hello Mark,

MarkC wrote:This probably explains why Lilly took this approach in the chart you helpfully displayed for us. He appears to have been relying on Haly rather than Ptolemy as his main source.

I believe that Ptolemy is the same source of Haly.
Haly writes his notes in commenting Ptolemy. Maybe Haly and Lilly used the nearer sizygy, on the other hand I tend to use the preceding one, but I'm not Haly, I understand

However, we still await a translation of Rhetorius. I believe this is forthcoming from James Holden and will be very welcome.

But mine is the one from Holden, the one you are mentioning should be the second edition...

I am giving a talk entitled 'The Astrology of Comets' to my local association in a fortnight and now feel much better educated and confident to discuss the traditional approach to delineating comets.

Scotland is a more difficult to reach than Perugia for me, in every case I'm sure it will be great,
Margherita

But mine is the one from Holden, the one you are mentioning should be the second edition...

This point has come up before when someone suggested this to me. (maybe it was you!) I must say I have never seen sight of any English language version of Rhetorius by Holden before. However, maybe it was originally a very small print run. If they are out there they seem exceedingly rare now. I should ask Philip Graves as he seems to know everything about rare books. However, realistically, I only have the pennies for a cheap new edition right now anyway so I will need to await the 'new' edition.

MarkC wrote: I should ask Philip Graves as he seems to know everything about rare books.

Before asking Philip Graves, you should read the bibliography of my translation of Albumasar facies Pag. 63:


Rethorius, Astrological Compendium (cura James Holden) (Phoenix: James H. Holden, 2000).

MArgherita

Before asking Philip Graves, you should read the bibliography of my translation of Albumasar facies Pag. 63

I did not suggest your copy does not exist. I was merely speculating why the book is so rare ( considering it only came out in 2000) and wondering how hard it would be to pick up a copy. I have really only been studying traditional astrology since 2005 so I clearly missed lots of great texts that are now out of print. For example the Project Hindsight version of Omar of Tiberius.

MarkC wrote: I was merely speculating why the book is so rare ( considering it only came out in 2000) and wondering how hard it would be to pick up a copy.

I have not idea about it, and moreover I've just the pages with Teucer text.
It will seem a joke but I swear they are the copies of the copy of the copy of the book

Margherita

I have been giving more thought to how we time the nearest lunation to the visibility of the comet.

As I indicated I am working on the the basis of its visibility which I feel has strong traditional authority and makes sense to me personally.

Which lunation do we use?

On his blog Anton Grigoryev is suggesting the new moon lunation of February 25th. The comet was is around 14 Virgo at this point. This was after the comet was expected to have become visible.

However, I have picked up from wikipedia that the comet actually became visible in dark-skies in remote location from February 7th.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C/2007_N3


This requires us to re-think our approach in my opinion. If we use Ptolemy's approach and look at the nearest lunation before this date it takes us back to the solar eclipse on January 26th. The comet was at around 24 Scorpio at this time. The next lunation after the comet became visible was the full moon on February 9th. The comet was at 11 Scorpio at this time.

In either case this comet has a Scorpio nature. However, using Ptolemaic approach has the comet moving through a strongly Aquarian pre-lunation chart too.

It seems worth reviewing what countries might be affected by a comet with a Scorpio nature:

According to Lilly the following places come under the influence of Scorpio:

KINGDOMS, COUNTRIES, CITIES. North part of Bavaria, the Woddy part of Norway, Barbary, the Kingdom of Fez, Catalonia in Spain, Valentia, Urbine and Forum Julit in Italy, Vienna, Messina in Italy, Gaum, Frankenford upon Odor.

Not a very satisfying list really. In terms of modern countries thats Norway, Morocco, Catalonia ( inc Barcelona) , Austria. Italy is covered elsewhere by Lilly under Leo and Germany as a whole under Aries.

One of the things I wonder about in these traditional associations is where these leave modern nations like the USA, Canada, Latin America, African nations , Australia and Pacific? Asian and African parts of the world are poorly covered considering they make up over 70% of the world's population today. I am assuming we will use National charts in the absence of any other associations. However, those are not conclusive as there are sometimes several candidates on offer. Some modern countries seem to strongly resonate to a sign. Australia for example seems very Sagittarian. Also should these associations change over time? Is Germany really Aries today or is it better described nowadays by Virgo? However, maybe this the whole issue of signs and countries is too big and requires its own thread.....

MarkC wrote: One of the things I wonder about in these traditional associations is where these leave modern nations like the USA, Canada, Latin America, African nations , Australia and Pacific?

In CieloeTerra they use a kind of astrocartography too.
It's not exactly the one we are accustomed to see.
They define what requisite they search and then they limit the zone where it is satisfied.
In their site there is an example with Saturn. They want it angular in the fourth house of the preceding syzygy, so they use astrocartography in order to delimit in which zone of the world Saturn is in the 4th house.
And elsewhere they do the same with some particular stars.

To be honest I don't know exactly how they have such result, if they use a software or they calculate by hand and then highlight the area in the planisphere. I'm more inclined to think this second possibility.

Margherita

Hi Margherita,

I take it this information for Bezza's students and not on the basic website? I took a look but couldn't see anything.

http://www.cieloeterra.it/eng/eng.index.html

The general confusion over the attribution of signs to modern countries seems a basic problem for anyone trying to work with traditional technique in mundane astrology. Is there really any point debating this lunation vs that lunation if the countries associated with the signs are so ambiguous in the first place?

Thus its hard to determine whether a particular technique is failing us or the association of a country with a particular sign is what is at fault.

This makes me tempted to calculate the lunation chart from various locations or use national charts. However, its a topic I need to consider more.

Mark