This is beginning to get boring now. I am with Olivia on this. Let it rest.

Matt

Lisa said something, "...if you don't want to look like your father..."

The Jiger chart, from the previous submitter (page 3), i really like. You get a Sun square to the ASC, among many other things that i like. I'm a Vedic astrologer, but i recognize, and even incorporate, western aspects. Even though that's not a terribly isolated reason to not want to look like your father, it certainly fits the 'King of Pop", but what kind of 'King' is that even, in classic astrological terms? I mean, Beethoven isn't regarded as the 'King of Classical' (music), that would be...umm...trite? MJ's life was indeed sad, but, kind of silly as well. A Sun square to the ASC would certainly diminish your 'dignity' as people saw you. That's sort of what happened to him, isn't it?

Other parts of his chart are fantastic. And there are accomplishments and pity that can never be taken away from him or his family. The Scorpio rising chart seems so off to me.

I've seen where events in peoples lives, regardless of death, occur on and on. For instance, a person dies, and their natal chart energy is so strong, and their talents so awe-inspiring, that their 'chart' lives on many years after their death. I mean, the interest in them comes and goes in predictable cycles.

Is there anything in western astrology that points to this? Some years from now there will be a huge resurgence in this man's work. He'll be sampled and his vault musically will be raided like a tomb in the Valley of the Kings.

I don't feel as though I necessarily need astrology to tell me that, but i would like to hear if anyone knows of any research in that arena.

thanks

Is there anything in western astrology that points to this? Some years from now there will be a huge resurgence in this man's work. He'll be sampled and his vault musically will be raided like a tomb in the Valley of the Kings.

I am thinking of spring - summer of 2012, when Solar Arc Saturn conjuncts MJ:s MC.

I appreciate that you liked my rectification...

Jiger

Biographical data (example 1):

When MJ first presented his moon walk on March 25 1983:

Progressed MC opp Sun
Progressed ASC exactly on the cusp of Cancer (the Moon sign)
Progressed Moon conjunct the natal MC and opp natal Uranus
Transiting Jupiter in the 7th sextile natal MC
Both transiting Pluto and transiting Saturn conjunct his natal Jupiter-Neptune (dance, feet) conjunction. This last observation is of course valid for all birth times during MJ:s birthday.

I would appreciate more of this type of critical scrutinizing of a birth chart and less of private thinking (projections) on how the birth chart SHOULD look.

(Yes, I know you can't normally read death just from a Solar Return ...

The quote "and you have quite a stellium in the 8th House, with Saturn conjunct Sun on the cusp. He did die of cardiac arrest." may lead one think we can see death in a solar return (SR) chart. We can't, except in some special cases.

You can't? I think you can. See Astrologia Gallica by J.B. Morin book 23.

Why would it be true in only some cases? The quote is "As above so below." It is not "As above so below every now and then."

Tom

Hello Tom,

Interesting...

Re: "You can't? I think you can. See Astrologia Gallica by J.B. Morin book 23."

If it were so obvious, it seems like many more astrologers (there is certainly no shortage of Morin-studying Traditionalists) would be expressing what they see.

Morin stated that the rulers of 1 and 8 or their dispositors were always decisively involved in the death of a native. This is easy enough to disprove. I have to take Morin with a grain of salt. (Morin WAS a brilliant astrologer, I take nothing away from that...only that some ideas were/are provably wrong and so that leaves a very large "IF" sitting in the middle of all of it, re: Morin.)

I'm already almost 47 (4 days to go) and so there's likely less than 40 solar return charts that would have to be looked at. I will gladly provide my birth info, if you'll gladly provide me when I had BETTER have my personal things all in order. (I'd like to save on some insurance premiums as well...)

Humor me... look at MJ's Lunar Return (relocated, precessed, again humor me) for June 10, 2009; 1:10:57 AM for Beverly Hills. (based from the rectification time via Starkman) In this chart, we have Uranus exactly on the Ascendant squaring Pluto at the MC and Sun at the IC. (An angular T-Square involving a luminary and two "disruptive" planets. Certainly we saw a sudden, unexpected personal event evoking worldly perspective and all contingent upon MJ's heart. If nothing else, this chart is expressive.)

James

based from the rectification time via Starkman

Will there be any signicant change if you use the TOB suggested by me? 23.14.18

Hello everybody,

Few days ago, siderealist Steven Stuckey emailed two Yahoogroup lists, ?Data_? and ?Political Astrology?, the time his jyotish teacher and friend for 25 years used: 19h33. Since there seem that no traditional astrologers subscribed to these lists, I thought it was a good idea to provide this time.

?Vedic astrologer Chakrapani Ullal was Michael Jackson's astrologer in the late '80's? [...] ?Chakrapani was given the time of 7:33 PM by Michael, who did not say where he obtained this time. To help facilitate privacy, Chakrapani read for Micheal at Michaels own home for at least the initial reading. After that, he read for him many times during the time frame of 1988 and 1989?.

Actually, using this time with few traditional techniques (Ibn Ezra's Indicator and participator in Solar Returns, located around Los Angeles or Los Olivos - Neverland), I seem to get good results. For primary directions, I use Antonio-Francisco Bonatti progressions rate (i.e., Solar arc on the ecliptic, with the Sun keeping the SA as in the radix, that is, same ?temporal hour?). So, the Ascendant was progressed at 29:48 Aries on his 2008 birthday (upto 0:46 Taurus on 2009 birthday). So, if Venus is its anereta, it was activated (by decennial, firdaria, profection of the Ascendant), it was the indicator, by Ibn Ezra technique (Book of Nativities, Epstein's trans., p. 75), if my understanding is correct.

If it were so obvious, it seems like many more astrologers (there is certainly no shortage of Morin-studying Traditionalists) would be expressing what they see.

Where in my post is the word "obvious?" The statements quoted indicated that it could rarely be done or done only in special circumstances. That makes no sense to me, hence the reference to "as above, so below." I don't understand how anyone can get from what I wrote to "Tom said it should be obvious." This is what I mean about putting words in my mouth.

Some SR charts scream death, e.g. a loaded 8th house. Some are more subtle, reversal of natal positions of relevant planets or connections between the return and the nativity. I never said, hinted or implied "obvious."

As for humoring you, I don't understand your point. I never said, hinted, or implied there is only one way to do astrology. In fact on another thread or maybe this one I don't recall which, I noted that both the relocated and birthplace solar returns had merit. On the now locked thread I also noted there is more than one way to rectify. I don't know how much more obvious my position can be made. Since no one person can incorporate all methods into his work, we'll all have to accept the fact that not everyone is going to see things our way.

If you're interested in a variety of ways to read solar returns, see Anthony Louis new book on the subject, or if you're interested in someone who took traditional methods and incorporated modern techniques, see Volguine.

there is certainly no shortage of Morin-studying Traditionalists) would be expressing what they see.

Where do you get your information? No shortage? They're as rare as hen's teeth. Secondly Morin isn't the only traditionalist who predicted death. See Worsdale for example. See something.

Tom

Very interesting.....but let him R.I.P.
S.G.

Hi James
Happy birthday for in 4 days time. I would like to make a suggestion in this sensitive thread, and in particular ? let?s remember ? because it concerns a very well known personality who has only very recently died.
If anyone wants to suggest their preference and state their reasons why; that?s fine. But please, no more challenges over methods or techniques, and no more talk or evidence or proof. Not in this thread, at this time. It has come close to flaming pretty much since it started, and right now people don?t want to witness astrologers getting puffed up over whose rectification method is the most precise. It?s unseemly.

With regard this comment:

I will gladly provide my birth info, if you'll gladly provide me when I had BETTER have my personal things all in order

Absolutely not. Such a post would be removed from the forum at this or any other time. We?re not in the business of competing with each other and if someone had tried to predict MJ?s (or anyone else?s) death in this forum, I would have immediately removed the post. This forum is PUBLIC, and we want posts that are not likely to cause offense to anyone dropping by.

I personally have no problem with the idea of rectification for famous personalities continuing after death. This has always been standard practice for astrologers, but let?s remember that traditionally they didn?t get instant connections to public discussion groups, so they didn?t appear to be preening over charts in the interim between the death and the burial.

Deb

Olivia wrote:
I was, perhaps perversely, delighted, to see a deliberately wrong birth time I'd started saying turn up in a Very Respectable Book on natal charts once, with either an A or AA rating

I don't do famous people charts unless the person is my client, or it's somebody who's been dead 100 years or more - preferably longer. It's too voyeurish. I know celebrities have to give up a lot of privacy, but in our society, it's too much. And birth times out there for anyone to see is crossing that line. For me, anyway.

Thanks for sharing your view! I'm glad to hear more astrologers share the same approach!I also think there are many charts of people who have passed away long time ago and who's lives where more than interesting that can be used for the purpose of improving one's knowledge and astrological skills without evading some one's privacy and disrespecting their wishes. Exposing such charts and readings against the will of the Nativities or without their permission is disrespectful but also dangerous. After all, a pure intention and a reasonable Astrologer's curiosity and wish to study charts of prominent people in order to improve his skills can hardly correlate with a massive urge to determine whether an important or simply, famous couple would separate this summer or not. and, yes, often it is very voayeurish. (Is it really such a surprise to find out that public figures have sex in their home.....or wherever?!)

Public and in other ways prominent figures do expose their lives to the public worldwide mainly due to the nature of their profession (some professions are simply- public), but sharing the colour of the (dirty) laundry with the rest of the world can hardly be anyone's choice. You can spend your life singing in your bathroom or become a professional singer . But if you do become a pro singer- that does not mean everyone should have an open access to your bathroom while you're singing in there, does it?!

After all- the public perception of the famous people is in a way distorted; while some of them are perceived in a more or less positive way, others are not . You'll often hear that a "singer has deserved it" when her private home video becomes public because "it was her choice to have a public life" and, at the same time, at least 50% of people will say that a famous TV journalist or reporter who's face we see on daily basis does not deserve her privacy to be exposed in a such way because she "didn't ask to become famous- she is just a journalist"!
It makes you think what the public's perception of some of these people actually is! Do they praise them, love them, hope to find a prove of their vulnerability...?

Well, I guess, that said- a chart of a man who had decided to live in Neverland is a great treat but, then again, do we know where we'd choose to live if we were living under the same pressure and what it must have looked like to have a life in which doing shopping in a department store is something unaimaginable and impossible? It's not just a chart of an eccentric- it's the chart of a person who's life was unnatural to begin with. Many of the things we can't understand were probably only the reactions caused by such life and a defense from rough outside influences.

As fascinating and strange as his nose jobs and physical transformation were- we should not forget what a great privilege witnessing his genius was!

May he rest in peace!