No 1 seems the most obvious considering the water influences. It also has sun at the midpoint of moon and venus. If we had the neptune placing, I would choose the chart with the closest aspect from neptune to a personal planet. As it is, I will plump for chart 1 and suggest the type of music played would be on the moody/sensual side (moon in scorpio)

Paul wrote:
On the issue of career, how many people genuinely believe career/profession can be seen in the chart and how confident would we normally claim to be, if not put to the test, to get roughly the area of profession a person would take based on the chart. Like if the pianist's chart weren't music, perhaps some other field in the arts, as distinct from sports or the religious life.

If it turns out you're wrong, will it shake your faith in being able to determine career from the chart?

I was taught the professional definitional technique at some traditional astroforum.
We were strongly encouraged to use step by step Ptolemi's method of finding prof. significators and using citations from Tetrabiblos.
That works very well at list to find close AREA of profession, like a doctor or artist, or lawyer.
I believe man with chart #2 could have artistic profession with strong Mars emphasize. Like some modern sculptor, using rough welded metal,
Like some steampunk style artist
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hi paul,

i do think you can see profession in a chart, however right or wrong my comments are.. i also qualified my comments which your capitulation post has cleanly removed.. finally, i have removed any ongoing comments on the charts as i happened to discover by accident which chart belongs to the musician.. this was before tom revealed more info on the nature of the other 2 charts which may or may not have given me a chance to modify my previous comments.........as a consequence i can't really say anything without skewing things, other then to say what i have here... when the identity is revealed i will say more. regards - james

Paul wrote:Interestingly most people think chart one is the musician, and NOBODY thinks chart one is the football player.

It'll be interesting if chart one is indeed the football player.

On the issue of career, how many people genuinely believe career/profession can be seen in the chart and how confident would we normally claim to be, if not put to the test, to get roughly the area of profession a person would take based on the chart. Like if the pianist's chart weren't music, perhaps some other field in the arts, as distinct from sports or the religious life.

If it turns out you're wrong, will it shake your faith in being able to determine career from the chart?

I think it may be the first chart.

*Venus, planet most important for artistry, is in a stake and is strongly advancing on an angle (DC). She has dignity at both the MC and ASC, and is also overcome by Jupiter (and Saturn, her dispositor) by a very benefic trine!

The ruler of the Ascendant, the Moon, sees the Ascendant by a strong trine from the 5th. In a way this indicates that the person sees what he wants and how to pursue it, or, simply, what is important in the life are 5th matters: creativity, etc.
The ASC and the Moon are also in the bound of Venus.

Saturn, in the whole sign 3rd place (communicating something), is also very strongly advancing on an angle (IC) and is the domicile lord of Venus, in addition to dispositing to the other planet that I believe is important for musical ability, Mercury.

Mercury, also in 5th, trines the MC strongly, and actually sits at the nearly exact midpoint of the two major planets advancing on angles, Venus and Saturn. To me, this may be about giving form via a kind of communication, or through the hands, to an artistic endeavor or practice (VE SA).

Saturn is an important planet for mastery.
Venus is very important for artistic talent.
Mercury is needed for facility and rhythm.
The Moon adds attunement and flow..

And, one last thing, I've seen the Lot of Fortune in Leo in many musician/actor charts - a few people that immediately come to mind are: Jimi Hendrix, Prince, Liza Minneli, and Janis Joplin.

I have already set out my reasons for going for Chart 1 as the musician.

If that is right its 50/50 on the others.

Here goes:

Chart 2: Sportsman

-Sun as ASC ruler in the 5th
-Mars is angular and strong in essential dignity
-Mars squaring Nodes-Heightens dynamic nature of Mars in chart
-Mars disposits MC. An emphasis on Mars type career
-Mars trines Lord 5 (Jupiter)
-Sun exaltation ruler of MC in 5th . A double emphasis on 5th house.
-The Royal Sign Leo rising indicates potential eminence or celebrity in an area of life. The Sun here falls in the benefic 5th connected to sports and creative pursuits.
-Sun, Mercury +Venus trine MC from 5th house

Chart 3 ?Cardinal

Lord 9 (Moon) by Whole sign in 10th Whole sign house. Career connected to further education, travel or spiritual matters. The latter fits our example.

Moon (Lord 9) in 10th sextiling Mercury, Venus, Mars and Jupiter. Able to form good relationships and gain social popularity and status. However, Moon is out of sect mitigating positivity of this placement somewhat.

Sun (WS Lord 10) opposing Saturn. A career focus on conservative traditions. Issues of isolation, self discipline, hard work and serious issues.

Saturn trining MC-Again focusing on Saturnian connection. Celibate Priests are traditionally linked to Saturn.

Saturn rules 3rd house. Traditionally linked to spiritual matters too.

South Node on ASC/North Node on DESC. Possible indication of self sacrificing tendency. Life of service to others.

Stellium of planets in WS 12th house. Monastic institutions are 12th house. By quadrant houses stellium falls in ie ?House of Good Spirit?. 11th house is arguably the most traditionally spiritual house following the 9th and 3rd.
The fact these planets are all under the Sun's beams heightens the emphasis on secrecy, hiddeness and decisions behind closed doors.

Mercury is MC ruler and dispositor of Lot of Fortune. A Mercurial type occupation is indicated. Mercury is also the first planet to rise (excluding the Moon) Possibly a writer or scholar or someone working with ideas.

Sun as WS Lord 10 in first House. Solar link between 10th and 1st house=Position of authority over others.

Sun-WS Lord 10 sextiling MC. Again focus on success and honours coming to native.

Strong Venus emphasis. Venus Almuten of all planets in Libras as domicile + bound ruler.

However, Venus is completely out of sect. Perhaps an indication of lack of real intimacy with others or more austere relations despite the strong essential dignity. At the very least a sense of being sociable yet strangely set apart from others at the same time. I think the Cardinal's unique social position may explain this paradox.

5th WS house is a fairly barren sign (Aries). Disposited by a Mars which is in detriment, out of sect, combust the Sun, and in WS 12th house. Almuten of 5th house (Sun) is in the 12th house by quadrant houses and in weak zone of strength in the WS 1st. All this seems the kind of descrption one might expect for a celibate Priest who begets no children.

Mark

Paul wrote:If it turns out you're wrong, will it shake your faith in being able to determine career from the chart?

No, it's just a bit of fun, I don't think anyone should feel that way. If I am completely wrong (as I have been before and will be again) I will do one of two things
1) assume the data wasn't very well recorded,
2) look again at what I missed and what I might learn.
The problem is I could look at each of these charts and find some reason to disagree with myself even now - that's why I tend to notice something quickly and make a decision without over-analysing.
But I?m sure many astrologers, like me, wouldn?t claim to have an absolute faith in determining career from the birth chart anyway. We tend to think in terms of inclinations, so this sort of exercise is useful for making us notice theoretical points we might not have a lot of experience with in practice.

Anway, if the question mattered to me that much, I would have done a horary

Ok I've changed my mind again.

That angular mars is too tempting. I've decided chart 2 is the sportsman.

I may change my mind at any moment again lol

Hello everybody

I believe chart no. 1 represents the musician because Venus is the strongest planet in the chart(the 7th being stronger than the 4th), in its sect, occidental, above the earth at night, in a feminine sign/quarter where she also has the dignity of triplicity - she's able to give her best, according to her potential. She's also received by an angular Saturn in the sign ruled by Mercury(Mercury/Venus combination as typical of musicians), as well as sextiled by Mercury in the 5th(artistic flair/leanings). The ruler of the Ascendant, Moon is also in the Venusian 5th which reinforces my conclusion further; Venus has also pretty great authority on the ascendant by term/triplicity, bringing her significations strongly to the fore regarding the "means" of satisfying the person's primary motivation. The Moon as the chart luminary is also in her terms in Scorpio, while she rules the MC by exaltation as well.

Chart no. 2 is the footballer,
because the professional significator is Mars, the strongest planet in the chart - oriental of the Sun, in an oriental quarter, in its sect and angular both by whole sign/division, while also being in its own sign where it can be what it's meant to be - a fighter. Mars also rules MC in Aries and because it's in its other domicile, it doesn't have to behold Aries to successfully manage career matters. Both the ascendant and its ruler in fire signs testify of the native's need to act and impose himself as a leader, initiator, conqueror.

Chart no. 3 represents the catholic cardinal,
because the 10th whole sign is intercepted in the 9th house by division, while the ruler of the 9th sign/house is in the 10th whole sign but the 9th house(the connection between profession and religion/faith). The Moon in the 9th separates from Saturn and applies to Mercury, which symbolizes a strong connection with the strict following/observance(Saturn) of the Word(Mercury). Saturn is the ruler of the 3rd(everyday observance of the religious precepts, religion brought down to practical application, so to speak) and Mercury rules MC(profession). Saturn is also the ruler of part of spirit in Aquarius, while he disposes all the planets in Libra by exaltation.
Mars as the ruler of the ascendant is in Libra, together with Jupiter(natural ruler of religion/faith and exalted ruler of the 9th whole sign/house) and applying while Jupiter offers him reception by triplicity/decan - Jupiter gives what Mars wants from him, he fulfills Mars's demands.
Another interesting thing is that the Sun(the chart luminary) rules the 10th whole sign/9th house, while applying by tight opposition to Saturn, the ruler of the 3rd and the POS - this gives me one more hint for the importance of the "faith/religion" house axis in this man's life; it also emphasizes the general theme/tone of obedience, restrictions, solitude, seriousness, aloofness, hierarchy, service, etc. All the planets in Libra are USB, so the matters of religion are of utmost importance, overpowering (almost)everything else.
What particularly struck me is the fact that all the rulers of the ascendant(except the Moon) are in aversion to the ascending degree, suggesting this man needed something to give him guidance/purpose in his life, something to lean on and tell him what to do/where to go(structuring/ordering principle); the only "exit" is actually provided by the Moon in the 9th!

Now I can't wait for Tom to reveal the truth

BTW - Great exercise Tom, keep them coming


Goran

Tom wrote:
Brubeck was drafted in WWII and served in Patton's 3rd Army but missed the Battle of the Bulge when he played in a Red Cross benefit.

That?s an interesting time in his biography.
With watery AC Mars is ruling triplicity and early years in nocturnal chart.
And Mars in 8th (life threatening time) ruled by Saturn in opposition to MC.

Can't believe I actually got 'everything' right