Skyscript Astrology Forum

Posted: **Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:52 pm**

Tom wrote:Putting up one's own chart and asking for a delineation is not generally accepted. If there is one chart none of us can be objective about, it's our own. Not identifying it as our own could have disastrous results, e.g. "I see here a person with a weak character, with abusive parents who, according to Valens is likely to die of a social disease contacted during an incestuous relationship." I wouldn't want to know that about my chart.

You wouldn't, but I would like to be advised about future disasters. I would consider myself prevented and then I could act on my own life so that I wouldn't go there. Just avoiding the wrong choices should be all one can to do to improve his own life. It is a matter of how you view the life, after all.

On the other side, if a negative event is read to be happened in the past and it actually didn't happen, I would say that without any fuss.

Posted: **Sat Jul 14, 2012 11:04 pm**

Tom wrote:RE: Third house discussion.

Frawley once noted that if there were an award for the most boring house, the third would win hands down. If it were an absolute truth that a house with many planets is them most important house, then a chart with many planets in the third could be the exception to the rule.

Do you know what his rationale was here ?

The idea that one house is more 'interesting' than another is a curio.

Posted: **Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:46 am**

@TZ the point was not that we shouldn't seek prediction. The point was that we don't put our charts up here and ask others to give free delineations. That's tacky.

@Nixx. Frawley has a pretty good sense of humor and this statement was part of it. Obviously there is no rating system from most interesting to most boring. The statement was a bit of hyperbole. He was just making a point that the third house isn't where a whole lot of action is.

I'll post those charts I promised later.

Posted: **Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:49 am**

Well Tony Louis published D'Effait's chart here:

http://tonylouis.files.wordpress.com/20 ... effiat.png

The Sun is in Aries and near the 8th cusp in this chart. So are Jupiter and Mars. Venus is also nearby, but in Taurus and close to the 9th cusp. Still not enough to help Henri or so it seems.

Posted: **Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:27 pm**

I see that the chart is a reconstruction, not cast with a documented time.

Tony's in-depth explanation on his blog makes for really good and relevant reading.

Posted: **Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:51 pm**

The chart I?ve been alluding to that has multiple planets in a single house, the fourth, belongs to Ted Bundy, a prolific serial killer. Yes this is traditional astrology where mayhem is a specialty. Just after his execution, the National Review, a conservative journal of opinion, opined that while it was certainly true that Bundy deserved all of the 2000 volts sent though his body in the electric chair, an exception might have been made in his case and give him a life sentence, because he was highly intelligent and psychology and society might be made better off given the opportunity to study him. Most serial killers aren?t very articulate, much less well educated.

Bundy was charming, intelligent, and handsome, all of which worked to hide a seething monster beneath. He killed for thrills ? nothing more. He was born in Vermont and worked his way throughout the country before finally getting caught in Florida gent, and handsome, all of which worked to hide a seething monster beneath. He killed for thrills ? nothing more. He was born in Vermont and worked his way throughout the country before finally getting caught in Florida ? a death penalty state.

Bundy would tell interviewers that his upbringing and childhood were not unhappy He grew up in a stable home (4th house issues and felt loved). Some thing was out of the ordinary, however. Bundy was brought up believing that the older young woman in his house was his sister, when in fact it was his mother. The people he believed were his parents were, in fact, his grandparents. This probably came as quite a shock when he learned it, but whether this surprising knowledge caused or triggered his rampage of rape and death, is not certain. Singer Bobby Darin grew up under nearly identical circumstances, and did not turn into a serial killer. However Darin learned of the deception much later in life than did Bundy.

Bundy?s biography can be looked up online. I?m interested in his chart. The emphasis is at the bottom of the chart and six of the 7 classical planets are in the 4th, if we use the five-degree rule and Placidus cusps.

I?ll leave the chart for now and in my next post I?ll relate some of Morin?s thoughts on the 4th house that we might find surprising.

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Posted: **Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:29 pm**

Tom wrote:

@Nixx. Frawley has a pretty good sense of humor and this statement was part of it. Obviously there is no rating system from most interesting to most boring. The statement was a bit of hyperbole. He was just making a point that the third house isn't where a whole lot of action is.

Another thread here one day exploring this idea up until 1700 or thereabouts would be an interesting one, for me at least.

Posted: **Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:44 pm**

Tom wrote:@Johnannes:

Tom wrote:
Morin says:
?? if a benefic follows a malefic the evil will also occur but the native will ultimately be freed from it.?

Tom, could you please, if possible and at hand, give the book of AG and the page of your quotation? Thanks a lot in advance.
Book 21 Section II Chapter 3 More Than One Planet in a House, page 53, Baldwin Translation AFA.My copy of Baldwin is dated 1974. I understand a new edition is available, and I don't know if the pagination follows the 1974 edition or not. IF not it is close to the end of the chapter about the third paragraph from the end.

Thanks again, Tom.

Morin's sentence has now, in the 'current' edition of 2008 I own, slipped to page 70 and is to find under: "Seventh. [...]."

Johannes

Posted: **Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:50 pm**

Morin wrote a little booklet, an essay really that can be accessed on Skyscript titled The Cabal of the Twelve Houses Astrological. ?Cabal? should be considered a synonym for ?mystery.? It has nothing to do with the Kabbalah. This pamphlet was published long before Astrologia Gallica and contains Morin?s explanations of why there are 12 houses and what they mean. This is not the place to outline and discuss his philosophy in any great extent, but what he said about the 4th house is interesting as it relates to Bundy?s chart.

Morin believed the triangle formed by linking each house by trine was highly significant. First he notes that the angles each represent a facet of a man?s life: life or beginning?s are at the ASC. Action is indicated by the 10th; decline, which he said begins with marriage, is the 7th house, and Passion is represented by the 4th. This is the one we will concentrate on.

The first links to the 9th and the 5th. A man exists, he said though his life (1st house), his God (9th house) and his offspring (5th house). Note that each triplicity contains an angle, a succedent house, and a cadent house. The proper way to link the three is by moving clockwise as the equator moved. It would be important to look at all three when delineating any one of them. The 10th links to the 6th and the 2nd. The 7th links to the third and the 11th. The 4th links to the 12th and the 8th.

The fourth triplicity is that of the dark angle (in the middle of the night or bottom of heaven) called the fourth house, and the Cave or Den of the Planets; attributed to old age, and termed the Triplicity of Passion, Affliction, and Death; whereunto every man is subject, for the sin of Adam. ?

But the first Affliction of Man in the order of nature is a sorrowful expectation of the natural Death of his Parents or rather (speaking Caballistically) it is that strain of Original Sin which our parents imprint in us, and through which we are from our very Births made obnoxious to every misery, and at length to Death itself. And therefore the Parents and their condition, during the life of the native as also Death and heritages left by them to the Native, do possess the principle house of this Triplicity, viz the angle of the fourth house.

Now that?s a mouthful. What he seems to be saying is that the fourth house, which by the 17th century had long been associated with inheritances, indicates not only the material things we might inherit, but the spiritual as well, and since the 4th is associated with the 12th and 8th, those things we get from them include what we might call today inner demons and ultimately death. ?Although he does not use the word ?spiritual? he does mention suffering here and elsewhere. We might use the word ?emotional? or even ?mental? to describe some of the inheritances from the parents.

Therefore, a loaded 4th house is an indication that we could inherit less than desirable things from our parents that could lead to death. This is exactly what happened to Bundy. Now everyone who has multiple planets in the 4th does not end up in the electric chair, so we need to look at the planets in the 4th in order to see how things turn out in the life. More on this later.

I was particularly struck by the word ?passion.? My guess is that Morin is using it in its original meaning: ?suffering.? We?re all familiar with ?Passion Plays? or Mel Gibson?s movie, The Passion of the Christ. According to the OED, by the 14th century the meaning started to change to what we think of as passion today: a strong emotion. It?s been suggested that Bundy deliberately moved to Florida because he knew he could get the death penalty and he knew it would be carried out. If true, this is a strong indication that he was suffering and he committed a form of judicial suicide. Why not do it himself? There are psychologists that could better answer that than I can, but Bundy was also a narcissist, and couldn?t bear the thought of killing himself. How could he, Ted Bundy, destroy such a grand creature as Ted Bundy? So we have to entertain the possibility that a person with a loaded 4th house could be suffering and even, if we continue with the OED?s definitions of passion, something of a martyr.

This is all general. The specifics come next. We need to determine the planet or planets in the 4th that will dominate the others. In order to do that we look for planets with analogies with the 4th house, or rule the fourth house or rule the other planets.

We must also look at the houses ruled by the other planets particularly the dominant one(s), and see how they might play a role in the 4th house. Then we need to look to houses 12 and 8 to see their role in this house. Pretty tall order for a single house, but since there is only one traditional planet that is not located in the 4th, this is going to be the most important house in this chart.

Posted: **Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:52 pm**

We're all going to see things a bit differently. That's just how it goes.

I can't get myself to call MARS and MOON 4th house planets in Bundy's chart. I've come to find the 5-degree rule to be too arbitrary ? handy for making astrological life easier, but simplistic. Moon is just minutes away from the 5th house by the rule. Mars is 9.5 degrees from the 5th ? and a long 27 degrees from the 4th house cusp. Both are in Sagittarius, the 5th sign from the ASC. So . . . if you're leading up to Mars as the dominant 4th house planet because it rules 4th cusp Scorpio ? well, here is my protest in advance.

Mars is too 'off to the side' for 4th house matters, in my opinion, and is busying himself in 5th house affairs.

About that Sagittarius SUN: Yes, using Placidus houses I would call that a 4th house planet because it's deeply situated within the 4th, not too terribly far from the cusp. As ASC ruler, the Sun might be the most dominant planet in the 4th. But I've been permanently damaged through exposure to whole sign houses and find its position in Sagittarius to be a weakening influence regarding 4th house issues in this chart (but I confess to not being sure I should be thinking that).

I'm tempted to call JUPITER the dominant 4th house planet. It's conjunct the IC, within the same sign as the IC degree. It's the chart almuten and has influence through such factors as being the domicile, triplicity, and term lord of the ASC-ruling Sun, the domicile and triplicity lord of the Moon, the domicile and triplicity lord of 4th house-ruling Mars, the triplicity lord of the ASC degree, and the domicile, triplicity, and term lord of the pre-natal syzygy Moon. Jupiter rules the 5th house of pleasure and sex, and the 8th house of death. The 4th house itself has associations with death, and there's Jupiter conjunct the cusp in that dark murky sign of Scorpio. Jupiter is strongly placed oriental of the Sun and is breaking free from combustion, beginning a new phase cycle. This is a Jupiter that wants to do things.

Posted: **Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:04 pm**

A DIVERSION:

Tom wrote:@TZ the point was not that we shouldn't seek prediction. The point was that we don't put our charts up here and ask others to give free delineations. That's tacky.

@Nixx. Frawley has a pretty good sense of humor and this statement was part of it. Obviously there is no rating system from most interesting to most boring. The statement was a bit of hyperbole. He was just making a point that the third house isn't where a whole lot of action is.

I'll post those charts I promised later.

Perhaps we could get you to reconsider that.

If it's the house of phone calls, emails and letters, along with driving around town, then there's plenty of action involved. It's the house of the Moon's joy. The Moon is about as changing and unsettled as they come. Then if you consider co-signification through Chaldean planetary order, Mars ? the action dude ? is associated with the 3rd.

Posted: **Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:00 pm**

Tom wrote: There are psychologists that could better answer that than I can,

The thinking these days about Serial Killers/Psychopaths, more Neuro- Psychiatric than Psychological, focuses more on the relationship between childhood trauma and brain development.

Bundy, in theory, would have lacked ''good enough'' language, touch, surroundings, affection ...due to the neglect and/or ignorance of his primary care givers. Here his 'sister/mother' and grandparents. Consequentially certain parts or functions of the brain, that enables empathy to develop, become stunted.

It's of interest here, as Traditional Astrologers tended to be more interested in timing of events, how some of these folks go out and kill others and some don't. But with the right trigger it could easily happen. So the idea is it's sort of an accident waiting to happen. For example if someone laughs at you at the wrong time, etc.

If astrologers want to find this in the chart then they need to find the infancy period and specifically the relationship with the people or lack of responsible for a healthy upbringing.

Whether this it possible with Morin I know not, difficult perhaps?

He wouldn?t have known presumably what causes this later behaviour. It?s information that has been appearing in the last 10-20 years, although it is not a big surprise to some psychodynamic theorists that harder evidence is now emerging.

Skyscript Astrology Forum

Delineating more than one Planet in a House