Skyscript Astrology Forum

The exercise indeed gave me a real boost to dig deeper in the stuff. Thank you all for encouragement.

My approach to astrology is a schematic one. I am trying to create some sort of the hierarchy of astrological factors and to determine which one dominates if there are many contradictory ones.

Back to the chart.

Mark mentioned:

My current understanding is that its the overcoming place not the dignity that makes planets strong. Just as angular houses make planets strong.

I agree with you and should add that the overcoming place and the place exposed to the overcoming give the nature (the qualitative slant) how it pans out in real life.

In my opinion, the nature of overcoming is determined by the planets involved, signs and houses they are in and rule, relationship in terms of reception with each other and their lords (positive or bad reception), whether overcoming takes place in the stakes of house or exaltation of the overcoming or overcome planet, how many roles in the chart the planets involved in overcoming have - disposes POF, luminaries, rules the hour, preceding syzygy (eclipse), etc. The more roles the planets have, the stronger the effect. Check also mitigating factors of which the poor guy had none.

Below is the list of factors which, in my opinion, were the most descriptive ones. I would elaborate a little bit on the tropical chart.

Mars's and Venus's exaltation and fall axes are on angles (Cancer - Capricorn, Virgo - Pisces. Libra is on the 5th cusp by division with intercepted Scorpio as the 5th WSH, Aries on the 11th by division with the intercepted Taurus as the 11th WSH.

Venus is only angular planet, as Yukionna pointed out, receiving the nature pushed from Mars, the sect malefic. She herself is overcome by Saturn, the out of sect malefic. From his own domiciles, Saturn aspects only Aquarius, which is on the cusp of the 8th house. Aquarius falls in a stake of the overcoming place.

I use the lord of hour and day in natal as well (experimenting so to say), at least Ezra included the lord of hour in his list how to compute the victor over the chart. Saturn here rules the day and hour and is in detriment in the rising sign. If it were a soccer chart, I would feel pretty confident that the game would be won by the underdog.

Venus, the only angular planet, is near her first station and in fall. So the features of the fallen Venus are obvious here and very strong, due to her angularity. They are intensified and colored with Mars's pushing the nature to her.

All lots are ruled by the Moon, the sect luminary, who disposes ASC and has exaltation in the overcoming place and is approaching combustion.

The 12th parts of all lots (involving both luminaries) if projected from the rising sign fall in Aquarius. So Saturn must have had at least indirect impact on the lots. His overcoming place (12th house) to Venus is very telling what he did.

Mars is at the bendings (partile overcoming the North Node), may this factor together with scorched Pluto adds inevitability (fatality)...

I do not use Lilit, but here in Latvia astrologers are obsessed with using Lilit, obviously under the influence of Pavel Globa. Here Lilit is overcome as well and conjunct both luminaries.

As regards the rape/sexual theme, I concluded it from the signs involved in the overcoming - Taurus and Leo - both are raunchy signs, and also from Venus, who receives Mars, but herself is in fall. Fallen Venus in combination with Mars always, at least to me, alludes to irregularity of sex.

Konrad, very interesting notes about lots, it is worth checking.

Just found one newspaper article still online on Divoire:
http://www.liberation.fr/france/0101167 ... se-suicide
Apart from the elements from Astrodatabank that Mark has already given, it says that he left a note just saying "butchery/butcher's shop", which is a word he used all through his trial while protesting his innocence: "I'm not going to be judged, I'm going to be butchered". His wife stuck by him throughout his trial. He twice attempted suicide while awaiting trial, or during. Claimed he had only had consensual sex with some of female co-workers (he was their boss). He was confounded by the evidence of the videos he'd made of SM sessions in the home he directed, "leather cap on his head".
Graham

Janis Valkovskis wrote: As regards the rape/sexual theme, I concluded it from the signs involved in the overcoming - Taurus and Leo - both are raunchy signs, and also from Venus, who receives Mars, but herself is in fall. Fallen Venus in combination with Mars always, at least to me, alludes to irregularity of sex.

Konrad, very interesting notes about lots, it is worth checking.

Mystery charts are a great way to test one's self. And I wanted to see the concept of overcoming work, which I found quite fascinating. After I made a determination of the chart, I looked up the date of birth at Astrodatabank, and his chart was the first to show in the search results.


I am not aware that Taurus are "raunchy signs" and would give an indication of a rapist, or pedophile. In your opinion Is that enough to conclude from the signs of overcoming (rapist/sexual pervert)? Does anyone have any quote that would indicate this?

Also, I would not consider a Mars/Venus trine to totally indicate perversion. Albeit it is a Trine from Mars to a Venus in detriment. I have a Mars/Venus Trine, but to a very strong angular Venus in her own domicile and it really is a wonderful aspect, nothing kinky at all, far from it. If it were a square, I would Definitely, see the extent of the sexual deviant he was. But as it stands, I would not have seen the extent of his perversion. Depending on which house system you use, Venus can be cadent in third, but close enough to be considered fouth. (debatable issue in my mind).

KONRAD Your post regarding the lot is a very good indicator, which as I see may account for the nature and perversion. Something I want to explore further. Thanks for sharing that. To me that may be the key to this person's perversion.

I am trying to find the keys so as to be able to identify something like this in the future.

MorningSun wrote:KONRAD Your post regarding the lot is a very good indicator, which as I see may account for the nature and perversion. Something I want to explore further. Thanks for sharing that. To me that may be the key to this person's perversion.

I am trying to find the keys so as to be able to identify something like this in the future.

Hi Morning Sun,

well I'd say it is one of the indications. There is a very strong case for this guy being violent in nature with Mercury lording the ASC while being dominated by Mars and I don't think this Mars also exactly aspecting the ASC would have helped matters. Note too that Mars also dominates Jupiter, lord of the 7th (in the sidereal zodiac, of course).

The Valens Lot of Marriage then shows signs of perversion, whatever that term means anyway. Perverse relative to some non-existant standard of purity that these ancient people pretended to live in, just as we do in our times. We can't have sex with another man as this is "poisonous" but its fine to commit genocide and mass slaughter. I'm glad they cleared this up for us.

Anyway, while lookiing into paedophiles and with most of them attacking young boys, I was intrigued as to the differences between homosexual men and these people. There wasn't a huge amount according to this lot and the state of the 7th lords (I was seeing Mercury and Saturn influences, Saturn in particular), but there was a big difference in the ASC lords and other indicaitons of behaviour such as malefics in angles and so on. This lot I am talking of usually had Saturn playing a prominent role either by aspect, rulership or conjunction in showing the gender which men were attracted to and how this would express but the character indicators actually told us who this would be expressed upon and with what in mind and in heart, either love or inflicting pain and suffering.

For reasons I have not yet figured out, the Dodecatmoiria of the planets was also important in showing where these desires were aimed and with what end in mind. I guess it would say something of their function but I don't know what.

It took me a while to come to terms with this but eventually it taught me the chart is a synthesis of many factors, not a step-by-step dissection of it via rules and testimonies.

I forgot to add, The square from Saturn in Gemini from the 12th to Venus in Detriment in the 3rd gave me an indication it was a hidden, dark secret regarding someone younger, or when the person was younger. And who knows perhaps he was violated when he was young, so my determination could have been accurate in that respect in hindsight.

I should have clued up it was children with the Sextile also from Saturn in 12th to Mercury in the 3rd. But aspects can manifest in so many ways. Had his sun been diurnal it could have been a Stalin or Saddam Hussein.

Konrad wrote:

It took me a while to come to terms with this but eventually it taught me the chart is a synthesis of many factors, not a step-by-step dissection of it via rules and testimonies.

I agree with you, but it is always tempting to create a set of testimonies and then see how they work. There are many approaches to astrology, mine currently is more a step - by - step dissection how to arrive at the final picture.

Synthesis of many factors is what we call the "art" which I, and I believe most of those sharing their experience here, are willing to master.

Konrad wrote: Anyway, while lookiing into paedophiles and with most of them attacking young boys, I was intrigued as to the differences between homosexual men and these people. There wasn't a huge amount according to this lot and the state of the 7th lords (I was seeing Mercury and Saturn influences, Saturn in particular), but there was a big difference in the ASC lords and other indicaitons of behaviour such as malefics in angles and so on. This lot I am talking of usually had Saturn playing a prominent role either by aspect, rulership or conjunction in showing the gender which men were attracted to and how this would express but the character indicators actually told us who this would be expressed upon and with what in mind and in heart, either love or inflicting pain and suffering.

For reasons I have not yet figured out, the Dodecatmoiria of the planets was also important in showing where these desires were aimed and with what end in mind. I guess it would say something of their function but I don't know what.

It took me a while to come to terms with this but eventually it taught me the chart is a synthesis of many factors, not a step-by-step dissection of it via rules and testimonies.

Its not something I have ever explored regarding pedophiles and sexual deviants. But I can see how the Saturn/Mercury combo would lead to homosexual tendencies or pedophile of young boys now in hindsight. Also as I mentioned earlier, in hindsight, that Saturn/Venus square indicated that for young girls, in this persons chart, however, the thought of something like that is so far from what I would have even looked for. But now I will be alerted to that.

Your post is excellent. I need to go back and get the info on that lot from your previous post where you describe it. It's not something I use, but I want to go back and check it out.

Thanks Konrad for your really enlightening post and thoughts! You are such a good researcher!! Just as I said earlier! Very time consuming and lots of work! Take Care!

Janis Valkovskis wrote:Konrad wrote:

It took me a while to come to terms with this but eventually it taught me the chart is a synthesis of many factors, not a step-by-step dissection of it via rules and testimonies.

I agree with you, but it is always tempting to create a set of testimonies and then see how they work. There are many approaches to astrology, mine currently is more a step - by - step dissection how to arrive at the final picture.

Synthesis of many factors is what we call the "art" which I, and I believe most of those sharing their experience here, are willing to master.

No Janis, I wasn't demeaning any method used to arrive at conclusions or different testimonies such as your own or anyone else's. I meant more like if we see an indication for sexual deviance relative to a cultural norm, we can't just say it means this or that without looking to other factors such as character and health of the native. It can't be taken alone to describe the native like the 7th house is one thing, the lot another and both are read seperately from the fundamentals of the nativity such as the ASC, the temperament or the Almuten Figuris. I learned to always bring my readings back to these building blocks and use them as a place to go from, always in the back the mind while looking to other places. Personally, I was guilty of looking for yoga-like indications of behaviours and events, this taught me differently. Please don't think I was belittling anyone.

MorningSun wrote:

Konrad wrote: Anyway, while lookiing into paedophiles and with most of them attacking young boys, I was intrigued as to the differences between homosexual men and these people. There wasn't a huge amount according to this lot and the state of the 7th lords (I was seeing Mercury and Saturn influences, Saturn in particular), but there was a big difference in the ASC lords and other indicaitons of behaviour such as malefics in angles and so on. This lot I am talking of usually had Saturn playing a prominent role either by aspect, rulership or conjunction in showing the gender which men were attracted to and how this would express but the character indicators actually told us who this would be expressed upon and with what in mind and in heart, either love or inflicting pain and suffering.

For reasons I have not yet figured out, the Dodecatmoiria of the planets was also important in showing where these desires were aimed and with what end in mind. I guess it would say something of their function but I don't know what.

It took me a while to come to terms with this but eventually it taught me the chart is a synthesis of many factors, not a step-by-step dissection of it via rules and testimonies.

Its not something I have ever explored regarding pedophiles and sexual deviants. But I can see how the Saturn/Mercury combo would lead to homosexual tendencies or pedophile of young boys now in hindsight. Also as I mentioned earlier, in hindsight, that Saturn/Venus square indicated that for young girls, in this persons chart, however, the thought of something like that is so far from what I would have even looked for. But now I will be alerted to that.

Your post is excellent. I need to go back and get the info on that lot from your previous post where you describe it. It's not something I use, but I want to go back and check it out.

Thanks Konrad for your really enlightening post and thoughts! You are such a good researcher!! Just as I said earlier! Very time consuming and lots of work! Take Care!

Thanks for your kind words, I really appreciate it.

Valens' section of marriage (from page 50 onwards of Riley's translation) is where you'll find the calculation. I must say though that Valens suggests we use this for marriage, it is my own observation to link it to sexual behaviour.

James_M wrote:

..Divoire's chart can not be explained on the basis of 'overcoming' only.. more needs to be considered, or else one must conclude the same on these 2 individuals who would also have the same set up with regard to 'overcoming'..

I agree with this. Moreover I don?t believe in using astrology as a rigid fatalistic tool. Despite the difficulties of this chart I don?t accept we can inevitably say we have the clear makings of a serial killer or rapist just due to these overcoming characteristics. I concede Divoire's Cancer rising chart looks exceptionally difficult (thats why I selected this chart) but there must have been countless people born on planet earth that day who worked out this chart configuration in a much less nefarious way. Each nativity has a set of unique environmental factors and each of us has the opportunity to exercise some degree of free will in the choices we make.

I have displayed below details of ?time twins? for Divoire all born on August 1st 1943. All of them had the same difficulties with Saturn and Mars overcoming planets in their chart. I don?t have data for most of these charts so I don?t know the rising signs or if they are day nor night like Divoire. I do think Divoire's specific configuration of the Moon closely applying to conjoin the Sun (with Cancer rising) is by far the toughest configuration possible that day. The only other nativity we seem to have timed data for is the British rock musician Geoff Britton who appears on Astrodatabank. Yukionna already mentioned him. For general interest I have also listed some mundane events that occurred on this date.

Paul Bucha-Decorated American Military Veteran & Presidential Adviser on Foreign Policy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Bucha
Paul William Bucha is an American Vietnam War veteran and recipient of the Medal of Honor. He was a foreign policy adviser to Barack Obama's 2008 presidential campaign

Jed Saul Rakoff is a United States District Judge on senior status for the Southern District of New York.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jed_S._Rakoff

Geoff Britton-British Musician
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Britton,_Geoff
British pro drummer who has been a member of the following bands, "Earthband," "Gun," "East of Eden," "Wild Angels Wings," "Rough Diamond," "Raphael Ravenscroft" and "Key."

Bashir Ahmad Bilour-Pakistani Lawyer and Politician
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bashir_Ahmad_Bilour

Basir Ahmad Bilour was a member of the provincial assembly of Khyber-Pakhtunkhwaand Senior Minister for Local Government and Rural Development of Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa. Assassinated by a suicide bomber in Dec 2012.

Margarito "Gary" B. Teves-Filipino Politician

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margarito_Teves

Was a Congressman in Philipinnes. He was secretary of the Department of Finance of the Philippines (2005-2010). In January 2009 he was named "Best Finance Minister" in Asia, a title given by London-based international finance magazine, The Banker

Barbara Hafer is an American politician from the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. Involved in financial scandal from 2010.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Hafer

Constantin Patsalas-Greek Dance Choreographer and Ballet Teacher
http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/ ... n-patsalas

Masakazu Tamura Japanese Actor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masakazu_Tamura

Denny Cordell-English Record Producer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denny_Cordell

Craig Falkman American Ice Hockey Player
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craig_Falkman


Mundane Events taking Place on August 1st 1943

Excecution of 11 Roman Catholic Nuns by the Gestapo in Belarus (Soviet Union).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blessed_Ma ... r%C3%B3dek

Known to Roman Catholics as the The Blessed Martyrs of Nowogr?dek, also known as the Eleven Nuns of Nowogr?dek were a group of Roman Catholic nuns from the Sisters of the Holy Family of Nazareth killed by the Gestapo on August 1st 1943 in present-day Belarus. Later canonized as Saints by Pope John Paul II

US Air Force (USAAF) Air Raid on Ploesti Oil Fields (Romania) August 1st 1943
Known as Operation Tidal Wave. US Air Force attack on Ploesti Oil Fields in Romania considered a failure and resulted in the worst USAAF losses ever in a single mission.

http://www.redstate.com/skanderbeg/2009 ... esti-raid/

http://www.answers.com/topic/ploesti-oi ... r-raids-on

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Tidal_Wave

Harlem Race Riot August 1st 1943
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harlem_Riot_of_1943

Operation Gomorrah-Allied bombing of Hamburg in late July/early August 1943 created one of the largest firestorms raised by the RAF and USAAF in World War II, killing 42,600 civilians and wounding 37,000 in Hamburg and practically destroying the entire city
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of ... rld_War_II

I am very glad James brought this issue up and Mark that you are following up as it is a very important issue!

It would follow then, that the "superiority of the places" does take over in any technique, overcomes the overcoming techniques so to speak. One cannot underestimate the power of the angles, or the superior places.

According to Dorotheus, they are:
1st house Ascendant, the best place
Midheaven, 11th, 5th, 7th, 4th, and 9th.

BONATTI, Al-Qabisi, Abu Mashar
Bonatti, who I believe followed Al-Qabisi and Abu Mashar and others, lists the strong nes are the FOUR ANGLES, in this order: 1st, 10th, 7th, and 4th, with the strongest being the 1st and fourth. Bonatti, chapter 8.

I do notice a profound difference in lives of people with planets on the angles. As the case of the Judge born on the same day as the Rapist, if his time of birth would be around noon, all of that stellium would be in the 10th house!! Too much energy and too strong and powerfully placed I believe for Mars or Saturn to overcome that type of placement and energy. In my opinion the overcoming just doesn't exist or doesn't apply. In addition then to being a diurnal chart. And in real life, obviously it does not, so I would not hang onto the belief of this concept in this particular case. I would give more weight to the angles and places, in particular houses with planets, angularly placed, or in superior places.

Hence the REASON for exact time and place of birth, obviously as we all know makes a HUGE difference to the quality of life!! As well as the house system used. To me that is the explanation. Planets in angles as opposed to a chart with the planets in cadet houses do reflect quite noticeably in the overall quality of the persons life, their type of job they can get, the home they live in, the quality of their relationships, what they can achieve, or not achieve, etc.

Just what I found to be reflective of real life as my experience has pointed to.

mark - thanks for saying all that and for doing a good amount of research into this date too..

i am curious about the question morning sun is raising here as it is my understanding the concept of overcoming, (''overcomes''lol) the approach she is raising here about planets in the 10th or on an angle for example... i would like to know if some others here can offer some clarity on this, as my present impression doesn't change even if for example one of these folks is born around noon.. mars will still be in a dominant position to the sun and tropical leo planets in marks mystery chart example..
and for the record, i agree with what morning sun is pointing out, which is more of the reason i would appreciate more clarity on this question of how relevant this concept is...