Skyscript Astrology Forum

Interesting Therese

I m sure Sat Ketu is important indeed.

The mother of that girl has Ketu Saturn in the 4th also.
It is not as closely square the Asc, about 9 deg off, and is in the 4th.

Constrictive emotional influence affecting emotional early life is apt.
She is not really a pessimistic type, but of course it is a hard combination in terms of emotional happiness and motherly support. The childhood had tragedies.

Thanks for your take on this,
Pierre

Pier wrote:
case 1 : female 08-06-62, 11:23 time zone 5w00, 71w15, 46N48, Quebec City. Tropical Asc is 29 Libra.

Serious menstrual pain all her life. Stocky and overweight body....

Case 2 Female 12-01-96, 9h07, Montreal, time zone 5w, 73w35, 45n35
Asc Cap 2

Physical weakness, lazy body, very little muscle tone and strength, things feel always heavy etc. She hates sport.

pier, just reviewing this thread again.. i note both charts have either moon/saturn or saturn on the south end of the moon's nodal axis.. you might enjoy reading judith millers excellent books on the nodes and medical astrology.. she lays a lot of the health issues people face at the doorstep of planets on the south node... menstrual pain and issues - definitely south node moon type issues in the 29 libra tropical example...

in the 2nd example - just saturn on the south node.. what i have observed is skeletal issues - back pain and etc for saturn on the south node...the muscles rest on the skeleton.. "things always heavy"- sounds very saturn to me.. this may be a simple interpretation but i think it bears closer examination and worth consideration.. i put the emphasis in both these charts on the south node being conjunct moon/saturn in the 1st example and saturn in the 2nd...

Thanks James

Yes the ketu connection when is it close to a planet is worth mentioning.

Both charts have Ketu Saturn in 4th house (Rasi sign) with no obvious connection to moon except is falls in a moon nakshatra.
So it could be that also. I mean, the moon links to women's organs, along with venus.
Interestingly, there are some yogas in Parasara linking the 4th with sexuality.

For the young girl, the whole family (women side of course) has trouble with monthly pains.

Constrictive emotional influence affecting emotional early life is apt.
She is not really a pessimistic type, but of course it is a hard combination in terms of emotional happiness and motherly support. The childhood had tragedies.

Yes the chart is very troublesome.

Some points that add some more to the matter
in the Sidereal chart:


1.
-Ascendant recieves aspect from Saturn.
-Asc.Lord Jupiter recieves aspect from Saturn
Thus a double Saturn affliction on the asc + it's ruler.
This slows down the development and is experienced
as pressures and also fears.



2. Ascendant ruler Jupiter afflicted in nak. Purva Ashada.
Fears of going into the water.
(She refused to swim). This Nakshatra is associated
with bodies of water as it's ruler is APAS , the deity of
water.



3.
Emotional and childhood issues repressive.
Moon in last section of sidereal cancer at junction,
Gandanta. This is challenging. And in 8H.
Moon is AK.
http://www.komilla.com/lib-gandanta.html
This soul seems to have taken on deep purging in this
incarnation.
(One other example of Moon in gandanta where Moon also is
AK, like in this chart is Vincent Van Gogh. Who had as we know
much issues to deal with in his painful incarnation, where he
at last ended his life in a mental institution. Van Gogh had his Moon
in 29'55 scorpio, debilitated in the sidereal zodiac conjunct Ketu)





4.
Sthira Soul indicatior the sun in scorpio 8th sign in 12th house show also
transformations and Deep inner psychologica issues about self and identity.
Sun is also karaka for body and vitality.




5.
Nakshatras in the chart is generally of the more Deep and challenging ones:
Moon - Ashlesha-
Sun - Jyeshta
Ascendant and Mercury - Mula.




6.
-Jaimini aspect of Saturn GK (is like 6L) on Jupiter and ascendant.
When the parashara aspect AND Jaimini aspect both influencing
Jupiter it is a stronger Saturnian influence on the ascendant.




7. Jupiter in this chart in own sign is a saving grace. And makes her not in essence pessimistic (as Pier said.)




8.
She is in Venus dasha since many years. Venus is a temporary malefic
for sag ascendant. Venus is 6L.
Her first 9 years of Life was spent largely in Ketu dasha. Which is not surprising, showing really the karmic Destiny to experience lack of support in early life, for some reason. This Ketu as we have seen in comments by other members, is with Saturn in 4th house and is important to understand the foundations of this chart.

Dr. K. S. Charak on Medical Astrology

There are a number of books on medical astrology in both the west and India. These texts are authored by astrologers who are not physicians with the exception of a very few books, among them Dr. K. S. Charak?s Essentials of Medical Astrology (1994) and Subtleties of Medical Astrology (1996). I?ve always been greatly concerned that astrologers analyze charts in the medical area when they have no medical training themselves. Dr. Charak reflects this view when he writes:

?Whatever references to medical astrology we get in our classical works are often too generalized and not applicable to individual horoscopes. The present day works on medical astrology are too deficient in many ways. The main reason for this deficiency is that, generally, astrologers are not trained in medicine and the best of them may not have enough understanding of the functioning of the human body...

?In order that there be a sound research in medical astrology and that astrology finds any utility in present day medical sciences, it is essential that medical men of today take up the study of astrology seriously. Medical astrology cannot be left in the hands of non-medical people.

?There is another problem for the present day medical man. The understanding of disease according to the modern allopathic system is very different from what it is according to the classical Indian system known as Ayurveda. The classical texts only use the standard Ayurvedic terminology. These terms are difficult to translate into the modern allopathic system. It is thus going to be no easy job doing appropriate research in medical astrology in order to render astrology of any utility to modern medicine. No fantastic claims can be made about astro-medical diagnosis in our present state of knowledge of medical astrology.?
Essentials of Medical Astrology, Dr. K.S.Charak, p. 15

In my opinion if we attempt to find support for an astrological system through medical means, it?s as if we handed a birth chart to our friendly local grocery store clerk and asked him to give an astrological reading. Too often astrologers ?jump in where angels fear to tread.? It is no wonder that astrology is still seen as entertainment by many in educated circles. There is disagreement in various astrological texts as to which planets rule the different organs of the body. There is even disagreement as to whether the heart is linked to the 4th or 5th house (Cancer or Leo).

Perhaps the one area in which astrologers can show their expertise is in the area of timing. Timing is mathematical. We can objectively see, for example, when a transiting planet reaches the degree of a natal planet, and we can suggest possible outcomes when we know the circumstances of a client's life.

Nakshatras: Ecliptic and Equator

I am puzzled as to why astrologers who advocate or practice ?tropical Vedic? want to measure the nakshatras in reference to the equator rather than the ecliptic. I can only assume this preference is related to the use of the tropical zodiac which uses the intersection of the equator and ecliptic to mark the first point of Aries. Therefore (the conclusion must be), the equator is of primary importance in measuring the stars since it supports the concept of the tropical zodiac.

From thousands of years ago the nakshatras related to the path of the Moon through the stars. The Moon dips up and down a few degrees in latitude from the ecliptic, not the equator. Radhe in The Divine Forces of the Lunar Nakshatras quotes: ?Soma (the moon) in the midst of all these nakshatras hath his place.? (RV 10.85.2) (p. 21)

In Suryasiddhanta: An Astro-Linguistic Study (1991) Dr. Bharadwaj states that ?The circle of asterisms called as bhacakra in the Suryasiddhanta is one of the most important points of references in the celestial sphere. As early as the Vedic period the Indians had located the constellations of stars called as nakshatras near the ecliptic and made maximum use of them for making the motions and positions of the Sun and the Moon with respect to them.? (p. 141)

The ecliptic was used to mark the equinox and solstice points in relation to the nakshatras through thousands of years. Professor Abhyankar in Pre-Siddhantic Indian Astronomy: A Reappraisal (2007) notes that the nakshatra stars are contained within a band 30 degrees north or south of the ecliptic with the exception of Vega (Abhijit) at 61?44' north latitude.

In his book Abhyankar says he believes that the Vega identity of Abhijit is an error, and the Abhijit star should be Altair, alpha Aquila (29? 18' north latitude). (p. 42) However, some Indian mythology supports the greater distance of Vega from the ecliptic. (I am writing another post on Abhyankar?s identification of nakshatra stars as he suggests corrections from the Suryasiddhanta.)

In searching various texts I could not find a single indication or hint that India?s nakshatras should be measured with reference to the equator. I can only conclude that this is a modern concept based on a mistaken understanding of the very ancient history and use of India?s nakshatras in celestial measurement.

Interesting discussion going on while comparing sidereal and tropical systems. From the discussion, I found that both systems can well explain the events once these are known. I met one astrologer who told me that he can explain the events starting with Mars Dasa as the first Dasa.

Probably, i feel, natives details have to be revealed after discussion.

warm regards

Therese Hamilton wrote,

In searching various texts I could not find a single indication or hint that India?s nakshatras should be measured with reference to the equator. I can only conclude that this is a modern concept based on a mistaken understanding of the very ancient history and use of India?s nakshatras in celestial measurement.

I know that Ernst Wilhelm has advocated his own view of the Nakshatras which while still sidereal is equatorial. However, Wilhelm's attempt to reconstruct what he thinks the ancient Nakshatras looked like is inevitably highly controversial.

I prefer to take a step back from all that controversy and focus on the more fundamental and straightforward question of whether there is a basis for thinking that ancient Indian cosmology was equatorial rather than ecliptical in outlook?

I think there is such evidence and therefore disagree with your conclusion that this is an exclusively modern outlook. I will post on this topic as soon as I have some free time.

regards,

Mark

Mark wrote:

I disagree with your conclusion that this is an exclusively modern view. I think there is some evidence from ancient Indian texts supporting the view that the ancient Indian cosmology was equatorial rather than an ecliptical. I will post on this topic as soon as I have some free time.

Yes, please give some references, Mark. Of course there are references to the solstices and equinoxes in Indian cosmology, but that isn't evidence that the nakshatras were equatorial.

I've had the wonderful sky maps from Michael Erlewine's Heart Center since the 1970s. These maps have the constellations, celestial equator, super galactic equator and ecliptic marked. I circled all the nakshatra stars from China and India. It's possible to see the difference between the stars marked via the equator (China) and India (ecliptic).

The celestial equator cuts through star groups that should be Indian nakshatras as they are mansions in the Chinese system. For example, the celestial equator cuts through Orion's belt, which marks China's fourth mansion. But a cluster of stars further north in Orion's head closer to the ecliptic marked the Indian nakshatra.

Then China used alpha Hydra south of the celestial equator for mansion #8, but India used stars in Leo north of the ecliptic for mansion #8.

China also used alpha Crater for mansion #10 and a small star in Hydra for mansion #9, both south of the celestial equator. India used stars of Leo north of the ecliptic to mark nakshatras in that area of the sky.

So, yes, I'd be very interested in Indian text references that point to equatorial measurement for the nakshatras. I'm sure others would like to see those references as well.

Part of the problem with ancient Indian texts is that they have to be read and interpreted by someone who is trained in Sanskrit and knows how to read the texts. This point was brought up in a 2012 article in support of the astrological sidereal zodiac in India. Two important points were made in the article referenced below:

(1) One needs an educated and experienced teacher to properly interpret the ancient texts. (No names were mentioned in the article, but this point was obviously aimed at proponents of "tropical Vedic" astrology, since misinterpretation of texts is entirely possible without professional guidance.)

(2) Each zodiac (tropical or sidereal) has to be used for the specific purposes its measurement is meant for. (Such as the tropical zodiac marks the solstices and equinoxes, and should be used for certain Indian festivals and sacrifices.) But the sidereal zodiac was meant to be brought into harmony with the nakshatras so they both begin at the same degree of the ecliptic. The sidereal zodiac was meant to be used for astrological purposes.

This is a very good article for anyone interested in India's zodiac question:

http://www.dandavats.com/?p=10952
A Tale of Two Zodiacs

The foundation text for any discussion of India's nakshatra stars, as well as their comparison to the Arabic and Chinese mansions, is Chapter 8 in the Burgess translation of Suryasiddhanta (1935). The Burgess discussion is exhaustive. He cites the various Indian astronomical reference texts as well as the previous research of scholars in the areas of nakshatras and mansions.

Therese wrote:

This is a very good article for anyone interested in India's zodiac question:

http://www.dandavats.com/?p=10952
A Tale of Two Zodiacs

Thanks. The counterview is put forward in a link in the comments to that piece. In particular an article/video by Vic DiCara. He seems to be yet another astrologer practising Indian astrological techniques who advocates a tropical approach. He argues this in part based on his interpretation of Indian texts such as the S?rya Siddh?nta and ?r?mad Bh?gavatam were he suggests a tropical outlook is implicit.

http://vicdicara.com/12-signs-of-the-zodiac-1.php

Mark

Therese wrote:
Yes, please give some references, Mark.

A few issues at the moment as I am struggling with a faulty keyboard that badly needs repaired! I am actually having to cut and paste a few letters that have disappeared from my keyboard so typing posts is interminable at present.

More fundamentally though I am not convinced this topic really belongs here. I know Ernst Wilhelm has put forward his own very specific view on the Nakshatras as equatorial. However, I began to contemplate this possibility myself before I came across Wilhelm's ideas. I dont personally think this notion is connected to a tropical view as you suggest. Whether purely eclipitical or equatorial the ancient Nakshatras are without question sidereal. My inspiration for this theory came completely from ancient Indian cosmology which doesn't seem to have been fixated on the ecliptic.

I therefore suggest opening a fresh thread on just that issue. Otherwise I fear the issue will get totally sidelined into the controversy around tropical vedic astrology.

Mark