Skyscript Astrology Forum

fwiw i see ennead charts as a static once every 40 day transit chart.. solar returns are transit charts too, restricted to once a year when the sun returns to the exact same spot it was... so therese, are you hoping to upend the thread? why not just do your thang with your ennead charts and stop demanding others to conform to your specific demands? that is what it looks like to me....

alternatively, the title could be changed to emphasize a focus on ennead charts.. that way you could kill a few birds with one stone..

aj,

the event happened sometime in june 1985... the profection for sept 4th 1984 is capricorn ascendant, although being in june 85, it has moved into the sign aquarius over the course of the year... either way, saturn is the profection lord.. however jupiter becomes much more operative sometime from her birthdate sept 4th 84 to sept 4 85... jupiter is in the sign aquarius and also shows up in the D9 chart in the same sign..

i suppose it depends on how one wants to read profection charts.. either they are static once a year charts, or they are moving and changing over the course of the year... which is it?

i am about 100 pages into ben dykes book on abu ma'shars which covers a whole lot more then profections, but ma'shar does work with them in a more fluid way whereby consideration is given to them beyond just the static once a year chart.. it's a good book that elucidates further what was in his persian nativities book 3 which also covered solar revolutions and profections... it also covers a whole lot more...

james_m wrote:aj,

the event happened sometime in june 1985... the profection for sept 4th 1984 is capricorn ascendant, although being in june 85, it has moved into the sign aquarius over the course of the year... either way, saturn is the profection lord.. however jupiter becomes much more operative sometime from her birthdate sept 4th 84 to sept 4 85... jupiter is in the sign aquarius and also shows up in the D9 chart in the same sign..

i suppose it depends on how one wants to read profection charts.. either they are static once a year charts, or they are moving and changing over the course of the year... which is it?

Yes, you are right, the profection is Capricorn for June '85. My mistake, my eye fell on the wrong line. I have corrected the post.

As far as how to perceive or use profection I think it is up to the practitioner to decide. Isn't that the purpose of the topic? If anyone wants to use subs, transits or whatever it's okay by me. It's not my thread.
Most western systems seem to prefer a moving approach. You could move the progressed ascendant dynamically to see what planets or cusps are activated natally but perhaps that is what you are meaning (?)
Note: I received a query on profections... The profection we are discussing is also called the "progressed ascendant" known as the Muntha in Indian solar return techniques (Varshphal). Let us be clear that it is a symbolic progression. The ascendant advances 1 sign for every year in seriatim.
[I reckon profections could be calculated from the Moon, Sun, MC or any other point for that matter. Might be a matter for other research.]
Here are the subs for the main Capricorn profection for Kamala if anyone needs them.
09/04/1984 Ca
10/04/1984 Aq
11/04/1984 Pi
12/04/1984 Ar
01/04/1985 Ta
02/04/1985 Ge
03/04/1985 Ca
04/04/1985 Le
05/04/1985 Vi
06/04/1985 Li
07/04/1985 Sc
08/04/1985 Sa

Hello all,
Here comes some random comments, not necessarily proper organised...

I choose the "Mother dies" alternative.

The varshaphala gives me conflicting messages.

Yearlord Mars with ketu in lagna in scorpio could give some loss during the year.
Muntha lord in 12th house gives same message. saturn as muntha lord is 4th lord so could indicate both mother issues, and location to distant place as well.

Ithasala yoga's first lord applying to 7th lord could indicate marriage.
(This is true when counting lagna from muntha and yearlord as well).

sub period mercury running in vimshottari dasha is 4th lord which both pointing to mother and relocation. But is in 7th house, so marriage is not out of the question.
But in transit, in jun 1985 transiting mercury subperiod lord, is transiting 4th house, clearly indicating 4th house matters mostly important (mother, relocation).

So what is it ? Death of Mother or relocation.
Due to the intense 8th house activation of moon (mother) by transit (sade sati) I conclude that the intense emotional time indicated points to loss of mother.

-Solar return saturn is to the degree smack on natal moon in 8th house.
Sade sati could indicate loss of mother.
In transit saturn and ketu over moon in 8th house, hard time emotionally, pointing to same thing.

The fullmoon eclipse is in may 1985 22 libra. Right on that 8th house moon again. So family changes, emotions, mother seems to the right choice.

Even though the varshaphala is conflicting. It would be interesting to see the result

Another key issue forgot to mentioning in above post, that pointing to the 8th house moon.

is that Komilla was running major period of saturn and a subperiod of Mercury.
Both saturn and mercury is in a moon ruled nakshatra. Saturn in shravana
and mercury in Hasta.
Both major period and subperiod pointing to 8th house moon. Thus seems that the time is giving emotional changes which could indicate family or mother issues.

first off, i want to share a chart of komilla with primary directions on the outer wheel.. this chart is generated off morinus software.... the settings are set as outlined in ben dykes recent translation from arabic of abu ma'shar... the significant primary direction for around the time that aj gives of mid june 1985 is jupiter to the opposition of mercury... as one can see in the chart, komilla has a number of exalted or dignified planets in her chart... saturn, venus, mercury and sun... it is a strong potentially very productive chart given the strength of these placements... i know there is a name for it in indian astrology when you have 4 planets dignified, but i don't know what it is... a particular yoga...

jupiter is in the 12th... i was never familiar with this idea that jupiter in the 12th, or that generally the 12th house could signify living in a foreign land... that is a new idea for me.. i mostly thought of that as more 9th house, but jupiter would definitely fit symbolically for such a thing... in komillas chart jupiter rules the midheaven and it is located in the 12th whole sign... the profection data really highlight jupiter for this time frame as well... i will share that chart after the primary direction chart... mars in gemini is in opposition to the sag midheaven... i tend to think of mars in gemini as a very moveable placement and one that might also be set up to live in a foreign place as well as sag on the midheaven..



below is komillas chart with the profection data for mid june 1985..



as you can see in the above chart, the emphasis of the profected ascendant is on jupiter... profected jupiter in turn is close to saturn in the 10th house area, or 11th whole sign... moon is in the 6th house - 7th whole sign area very close to natal mercury position. and finally, but perhaps most importantly - pro sun is close to an opposition to saturn in cap in the 10/11 house area.... i admit i am fudging the house systems here, but it is just how i do things... all of this looks more work related, then death of mom related...

now, lets look at the solar return chart...



the one challenge here for me in the choices is to go with death of mom based off the position of solar return saturn on the moon in the biwheel chart i share - all being in the 8th sign of the natal chart... however, i don't know if this is the case.. we see moon-jupiter approaching the midheaven - again focusing on the travel signs sag - in connection to what might be komillas work ambitions.. the ascendant in early scorpio is technically the 9th sign to pisces - again a potential travel theme... mars and south node also participate in this, all in scorpio - 9th sign.. midheaven in the solar return chart is in the 6th sign and close to komillas sun position which indicates something about greater status being received or reached in this particular year, backed up with the moon-jupiter in sag up in the midheaven vicinity....

so, i am guessing this "2. Komilla got an overseas posting with a multinational company where she stayed for many years. "

good exercise aj!!! thanks for doing this! it will be fun to see the results... my approach is using primary directions, profections for the approx time and data from the 1984 solar return... the transit data for mid june 1985 has mars-mercury in gemini in opposition to the solar return moon-jupiter conjunction, again all emphasizing the travel signs - gemini and sag - which we find in her natal chart on the midheaven axis... work seems to be the thing here and traveling to a different country seems to make the most amount of sense to me..

in thinking about this more, there are so many ways to rationalize the conclusion.. and this i think is the dilemma that astrologers face.. what do you give priority to?

so, in thinking of option 1 - " Komilla was married." i could alter my emphasis to say the primary direction of jupiter to mercury - the 7th lord might have to do with marriage instead.. jupiter as 1st lord meeting mercury as 7th lord seems like an obvious theme for person meeting or marrying here.. however, what does jupiter as ruler of the ascendant, located in the 12th have to do with this?? also, what role does saturn as profection lord for the year, and ruler of jupiter in the 12th have to do with any of this?? and we see saturn - the profection lord of the year under consideration in the 12th house of the solar return chart.. how does that fit in with marriage? it seems like an astrologer is challenged by all the possibilities and needs to find a way to prioritize what is most important and why it is most important...

in reading the book - https://bendykes.com/product/pn4-on-the ... ativities/ Persian Nativities IV: On the Revolutions of the Years of Nativities one quickly picks up on ben dykes translation of ma'shars work as indeed prioritizing to find the distribution lord, using Egyptian terms and a number of methods to arrive at what planet, or planets are ultimately determining the most important role used to prioritize and be able to predict accurately... i can't say i have the method down by a long shot, and it goes without saying that this method will run into conflict with other systems, such as the dasa system, or systems used in indian astrology...

all this brings me back to thereses example of catherines chart and a few comments i want to make on it.. as i see it in retrospect and how i interpret it in the present sense, jupiter in cancer in the natal chart is in an 8th or 9th house position dependent on what house system one uses.. i see the event for catherine of most significance was the inheritance from her sister of the money, or trip.. without this gift from her sister, there is no holiday or trip! so, indeed jupiter acts as a positive force in cancer - the sign of the family, but in a way that gives more emphasis to the 8th house concept of inheritance, then it does to the 9th house concept of travel.. one could say they are directly related and interconnected, to which i would agree.. but i think the fact that it was a jupiter profection year, with a well placed jupiter tells much of the story.. which brings me back to aj 's example on komillas chart...

the profection lord is saturn, again like thereses example, in a dignified position in capricorn and in the 10/11 house area of the chart.. it is the most elevated planet in komillas chart... there is some mutual reception between saturn and moon - exaltation-triplicity, with the 2 planets in square to one another... saturn aspects the moon-venus according to indian astrology aspect doctrine.. saturn rules the 11th and 12th, whereas moon rules the 5th.... if this saturn is emphasized for this particular year, what exactly is being emphasized? is it an 11th /12th house dynamic that is being emphasized, or a 5th house being emphasized? saturn rules the 3/4 houses in the solar return, while moon rules the 9th... how does one factor all of these considerations?? i still believe this is about a job in a foreign country based on more of an emphasis of saturn, but i could be wrong....

another interesting dynamic to komillas chart is the aspect connection of jupiter trine mars and moon... these are the 1st/5th and 9th rulers brought together in a raja yoga which is very positive... i suspect anything emphasizing any of these planets would be more favourable then not... marriage or job opportunity in a foriegn county sound more likely then death of mother here based on my read of this too...

but i will be the first to admit that my own subjective will cloud my conclusions.. so, ultimately i go back to what does all the data serve? what is the main consideration astrologically? until an astrologer figures that out, they are left guessing as to the nature of any event... i can work with solar arc directions, primary directions ( the options are overwhelming fwiw ), profections, solar returns, transits, dasas and etc - but of them all - how does one decide which is the most relevant and the key consideration in it all? i am still working on this, so my answer is subject to my present dilemma in this area.. until this is corrected, i am pulling at straws... thanks for the exercises aj and therese... my development is an ongoing challenge and learning curve.. hopefully someone benefits from me saying all this... i am stating what is on my mind at present which might or might not be of value to others here.. at least you all get an idea where i am at presently..

here is the zodiac direct primary directions list from age 0-25.. i am curious if it is visible in the manner i am sharing here... if not, i will try to fix it...

i have tried 4 or 5 times to get the text bigger, but can't figure it out via the postimage.org site.. i see it bigger on my screen, but am unable to transfer it as such, so i will admit the primary direction data i am sharing here is hard to see...

fwiw, here is the data for for late 1984, and into 1985..

sextile of saturn direct to moon november 17 1984
trine of jupiter direct to mercury march 18 1985
sextile of saturn direct to jupiter june 3 1985

without going into great detail - the question is how long is a primary direction operative for? what is the window of time it covers? perhaps the saturn to moon signifies the death of mom, but it doesn't conform with the other primary directions... the 2nd one that is the one i mentioned in my first post, might be used to argue for marriage... finally the last one -sextile of saturn direct to jupiter would argue for the job overseas..

again, i am back to my previous post discussing the importance of having a system with a hierarchy that one can put in place all the other bits of info gotten off the different methods one might be using..

AJ wrote (28 September) regarding the ennead:

In this case, you only have June to worry about so there are only two charts to erect and choose between if indeed ennead charts are truly decisive in the context of yearly prediction. One or the other should reflect the event promised in the solar return.

Of course you are right. I think I was more or less talking to myself here as I hadn't really looked at the chart but only noted the ennead dates. However I was much put off by James' comment that followed yours, and decided then and there that my almost 80 year old self wasn't going to take that kind of flack from a mere youth in his 60s. So I put the chart away thinking it was time to withdraw from Skyscript, and notified a few friends of my decision.

However, tonight I decided to look at Komilla's chart again and have decided on the event. (It took some study to fall into place.) But it's late so I'll post my thoughts tomorrow. I'm also taking some time to compare interpretations in Varshaphal texts to see if they apply to the way I am interpreting the SR chart. Or have I messed up again with techniques I've been testing??

james_m wrote:here is the zodiac direct primary directions list from age 0-25.. i am curious if it is visible in the manner i am sharing here... if not, i will try to fix it...

It is showing only as a blank blue box saying 'image not found' as of 6 MDT 1 October.

I go with job and overseas option. I consider saturn powerful being dasa lord.

AJ wrote:

As far as how to perceive or use profection I think it is up to the practitioner to decide. Isn't that the purpose of the topic? If anyone wants to use subs, transits or whatever it's okay by me. It's not my thread.

These topic threads can be started by anyone, and anyone can join in the discussion. The threads don't belong to anyone in particular. They're only forums for discussion, learning and sharing.

Most western systems seem to prefer a moving approach. You could move the progressed ascendant dynamically to see what planets or cusps are activated natially....

I've been trying to figure out when profections went from the simple advancement of one natal sign per year to adding increments for shorter time periods. This seems to be definitely a western innovation. Even D.P. Saxena who translated Tijak Neelkanthi (Ranjan Publications, 2007) into English comments:

"It seems that Muntha has been taken with some modifications on account of the language from Persian, the language of the "Yavanas"...As there are 12 signs in the zodiac the Muntha goes to the other sign after the span of 12 months. As Muntha is supposed to transit 30 degrees (one sign) in a year we can say that it transits 2 degrees and 30 minutes by 36 days."

Tijak Neelkanthi, p. 136.

But this quote doesn't make it at all clear exactly what was in the original text. B.V. Raman's family can be depended upon to remain with original classical texts. In Varshaphal: The Hindu Progressed Horoscope (Raman Publications, 1969) there is no mention of the small increments, only the progression by natal house for each year of life, the cycle repeated every 12 years.