Looks like I delineated the manner of death correctly but as Yuzuru warned I seem to have killed a dead man in the process. Here is my 2nd attempt.

Proposed solution: 13-Oct-2002, 11:24 PM GMT

Method

From my first attempt, I would still consider the period between the native?s 40th birthday on 3-Jun-2005 to Jan-2006 as a possibility based on reasons previously stated. However, the transit activity to the grand square just isn?t a standout for the 2nd half of 2005 so I am throwing that time period out.

I said in my first attempt that when the Syzygy Ante Navitatem is a solar eclipse, I have seen a number of cases when the rules for longevity don?t work because eclipses often break the rules. For this reason, I am willing to consider times before age 44 which was the initial al-kadukadah projection.

I am drawn to the time period following the 10-Jun-2002 solar eclipse because for the several eclipses in the Gemini-Sagittarius during this time period, this particular eclipse has the strongest connections to the natal.

Solar Return, Eclipse, & Transits

Let?s start with the 2002 solar return which features Cancer rising, same as natal Ascendant. This itself is an important factor because in years when the return Ascendant matches the natal Ascendant, there is always some promise of the natal chart which is strongly brought forward for that year, for better or worse. Unfortunately in this case it appears for the worse.

High scoring killing planets Venus and Jupiter fall in the return?s Ascendant (and same sign as natal Moon - the hilaj) as well as Mars. Saturn afflicts the Sun by conjunction and the entire 1st-12th house groupings are accentuated by antiscia. 2002, age 37, marks a 2nd house profected year. Lord of the Year is Sun. Sun appears in the return?s 12th and natal 12th and the Sun is eclipsed within 2 weeks of the birthday. Bad! The 10-Jun-2002 solar eclipse degree is 19GE53, sign ruler Mercury, bound ruler Mars. Eclipses are often activated by subsequent transits of Mars and I noted that since the eclipse degree was square natal Mars, the transit of Mars on 27/28 Sep 2002 to the square of the eclipse degree would also mark a Mars return for the native. But based on some additional clues given I moved the date a bit later to 13-Oct-2002. Mars applies to the square of Saturn in mutable signs, Nodes just past their returns in Gemini-Sagittarius axis, and Moon separates from the trine of Mars and separates from the (illegal) quincunx aspect of Saturn where it opposes its natal position. The time of day matches additional information given. And for grins tr. Pluto/Sagittarius can also be considered an activation to the natal grand square.

Fidaria

Moon-Sun from 25-Jul-01 to 7-Nov-02. Joins the Moon/hilaj with the Sun in 12th. Sun subperiod is important and adds emphasis on Sun as Lord of the Year as well as the Sun getting eclipsed. [Fidaria is an edit, forgot to put in original post].

Primary Directions

During most of the time period Deb mentioned, Jan-2001 to Jan 2006, the following primary direction sequences were in play:

15-Nov-2002 to 28-Apr-2005. dexter square Moon d. => Saturn
18-May-2002 to 4-Jun-2004. sin. square Moon d. => Mars

The date ranges I have given contain a total of eight directions depending on whether Ptolemy or Regiomontanus is used and what latitude options are made.

As a possible arcus vitae, of interest is the following direction:

13-Oct-2002. PT. dexter square ASC c. => Nodes.

If I am correct in the role of the June 2002 eclipse in the death of the native, then the Nodes maybe relevant killers even though they are not placed in the natal 2nd-8th axis.

Drilling down to directions in the solar return (a bit much at this stage, but I found this of interest and will share it anyway):

PT. opposition Sun c. => Mars. 132deg 47min.

The proposed 13-Oct-2002 11:24 PM time falls 132.76 days or 132deg 45min after the native?s 3-Jun-2002 birthday. For key of 1 degree = 1 day, this direction would be exact.

Annual Profections

I said earlier that if an eclipse were involved with the accident that I would wager the degree of the Syzygy Ante Navitatem would be highlighted in some way. Here is that measurement:

7-Oct-2002. Profected Moon square SAN. (profected rate 30 degrees per year).

The full activation of the natal grand square by the Moon runs through 2-Jan-2003 but this appears the most relevant measurement.

Monthly Profections

13-Oct-2002 falls in a 6th house monthly profection. South Node falls in the 6th for both natal and the return. 6th house ruler Jupiter, high scoring killer, falls in the return?s 1st which directs problems of the 6th house to the native. There was another clue given which led me to the 6th house profection, but as requested will limit this post to discussing the time exclusively.

Lots

The 12th house Lot of Accusation, Exile, and Injury, one of the two Mars-Saturn lots, is computed to be 19CP12, with the antiscion 10SA48.

For the proposed 13-Oct-2002 date:

d.s.a. South Node 19CP31 conjunct the lot with 19 minutes (19 weeks)
tr. South Node 11SA12 conjunct lot?s antiscion, would be exact 19/20 Oct.

Note: I always use the Moon?s Mean Node, not True Node.

Divination

It's pretty interesting that at the moment I am writing this up, Mercury applies to the square of Mars with reception in the same degrees as Mars and Saturn for the proposed 13-Oct-2002 date. These transits are probably one reason why I was led to the 13-Oct-2002 date whether it's correct or not.

That?s my best shot.

Hi Deb

You wrote :

"In fact, I?ll tell you this, the moment of the accident occurred with the transit Moon in perfect alignment with the natal Moon. So if you get the day right, you may well be able to identify the exact moment that this occurred. "

Several people who answered understood this to mean a lunar return. I have doubts about this and I think it can mean the transit Moon in partile conjunction or partile aspect to the natal Moon. Is that so ? I am not a native speaker.

By the way, would you be so kind as to explain how I can close a quotation on the forum ? When I click on 'quote', a quotation space is opened, but, after entering the quotation, I can't manage to close this space and go back to the normal writing space. Thank-you.

Hi Martine

All I meant to say was that, by transit, there is some sort of exact alignment with the Moon - I didn't mean to impy anything too specific, just saying that I think it is hypothetically possible to get the moment of the crash, if someone got close enough to the relevant period.

Hope that helps.

Re- your problem with quotes. I usually copy the passage I want to quote and then paste it into the reply, and then enclose it in quote tags by pressing the quote button. If that doesn't work for you, then just type the following at the end of the passage where you want the quote to end:

[/quote]


Again, hope that helps
Deb

Hi Deb

Re- your problem with quotes. I usually copy the passage I want to quote and then paste it into the reply, and then enclose it in quote tags by pressing the quote button. If that doesn't work for you, then just type the following at the end of the passage where you want the quote to end:

[/quote]

It seems to work. Thank-you.

Deb wrote:The purpose of this challenge is to see how feasible it is for an astrologer to be expected to identify the time of death, or a potentially mortal accident, from the birth data alone.

As far as I know, an absolutely reliable, detailed, and consistent, technique for use in predicting the outcome of an observed configuration in or a later configuration in relationship to a natal or a chart derived from the natal has never been demonstrated in all the history of astrology. If there had been, all astrologers would be using only that technique by now. You know the reliable and detailed one that can tell exactly how an aspect will manifest and to what magnitude. Even progressed lunar returns, as accurate a timing tool as they are, can at best see a time as positive or negative without knowledge or input as to what the chart subject may be involved in at a particular time.

All of life is continuously experienced mentally or psychologically and at the cellular level. There is no way that any aspect may absolutely be foretold to manifest and be recognized in the physical world, indeed astrologers themselves have posted in many forums that a transit to a planet or angle in their own chart produced no event that they were aware of. Many diseases develop without being known about as they are doing so. Along without the ability to predict whether or not an aspect will manifest physically there is no way to determine the magnitude of any transit (we all experience a Jupiter return about every 12 years with many aspects from transiting Jupiter to natal in the interim - what astrologer can, with certainty, predict to what degree and in what manner any of those aspects will manifest?).

There have been accurate predictions noted in astrology's history but isn't the truth that those occasions have been rare rather than the norm? I would be delighted to be informed of an astrologer who consistently and with detail was or is able to make predictions and of the technique that was or is used. Isn't the truth that anything beyond positive or negative is, in most cases, a guess? If not, I have had approximately 35 Mars returns, a like number of oppositions, and double that many squares in my life - anyone want to tell me what each produced? With the foregoing question I am just trying to demonstrate what I believe to be true. If Mars presents too cumbersome a number, what about Saturn's 8 hard (conjunction, squares, and oppositions) aspects to every planet and angle of my birth chart alone by the time of the charts second Saturn return?

Bob

Hi Bob

I agree with you. But surely no one is thinking that a single technique or one particular aspect can be used to indicate this event? Of course there is nothing ?reproducible? because what we need to see is a whole collection of supportative testimonies that come together to underline the potential for danger, and the focus of it upon particular moments.

First I would expect that there is broad range of time which looks quite difficult, (either by solar return / primary directions / superior transit, etc); and then within that period we might find a highlighted period by the reinforcement of a technique which gives a narrower time frame, (lunations / transits, etc), so that one technique within another builds towards the indication of danger. Then within that we find the days and moments, using narrower techniques and looking at the Moon (the daily monitor). The moment itself would have to have some activity around the angles I should think.

Practically impossible, but not necessarily impossible. Since we are all human and living lives, rather than existing just to predict the end of it; its an unrealistic expectation. But we will see.

BTW, I will explain that my expectation for this kind of thing changed several years ago during a residential horary course, when one of the students asked the class to examine one of her horaries, to see how she might have improved her judgement. The question had legal implications, and for various reasons I can barely remember let alone explain, it hinged upon when the impending death of an elderly, dying man would actually occur. She had been able to predict the day of the death, but couldn?t see how she would have got the moment of death. I was reluctant to look at this to begin with, because I thought it was good enough to get the day of the death, and trying to locate the very moment seemed a bit, well, almost sacrilegious. But she insisted that, for the philosophical premise of horary to be justified, this moment would have to be preordained and identifiable in the chart. So we looked for it, and we found it ? the timing techniques worked out a particular moment of the day and that was the moment that the old man passed away. We were all pretty amazed at how the cosmic connections are always there, and how deeply they run. So never say never, Bob. That student taught me that there is always more to get out of the astrology, if we continue to squeeze it for all it?s got.

2. attempt

21 July 2004

Sidereal Solar Return 2004

Solar Asc 26?Ge00'
Natal Asc 27?Ge41'
Solar Mars 23?Ge11'


Solar MC 22?Aq39'
Natal MC 24?Aq36'
Solar Moon (20?Sc24' ) opposite Solar Sun (19?Ta11')
Solar Neptun in 8


linchi

Certainly a bit of positive thinking helps in any endeavour and in astrology I would say it is most important.If we do not have some self-belief we would be afraid to try anything and if we cannot convince our own minds we will not make a client believe in us.

Valuable though this is, it is not the same as reading, say the solar return of a gap year student who has set his heart on a years backpacking and finding yourself seeing something dodgy in the charts.At least we are getting good practise here.

I would take issue with the idea that if a good method existed people would use it. People are not rational and will doggedly follow a discredited
school for a variety of ressons. I will not court controversy by citing examples too close to home so here is J-B on the issue.
"When the human intellect,having forsaken the light of reason, loosens the reins to accept fictions, it is marvelous how much it runs riot in these"

AG24 Ch 2 trans Holden

I should have read the whole book before making my attempt on this but never mind.

Matt

Hello

My first answer to this exercise, on August 12th, was :

- In or about January 2002.

Now I will try to give a more precise answer, based on the supplementary information given by Deb. My guess is :

- 31 December 2001, 20:52:27 GMT.

This is a non-precessed lunar return, so the Moon is aligned with the natal Moon. The natal grand cross is affected by the following hard aspects :

- Mars transit conjunct natal Saturn
- Saturn transit conjunct natal Sun-North Node
- Pluto transit conjunct South Node.

But, with a precessed Lunar return, it would be :

- 31 December 2001, 21:43:14 GMT.

I don't know which is best.

after realizing that i had been reading the wrong chart for the last couple days, I have reviewed the correct one. (i was looking at this one on my first post, not the second)
anyway, I will stick by my original assessment by fridaria and profection, with some testimony from the SR.
I would say to the native that either just prior to or just after his 40th birthday (June 3rd 2005) he may have an accident or injury.
Saturn rules the firdar period and the profected Ascendant is at 20deg Scorpio in the 5th sign/house. The native will engage in dangerous activities of enjoyment this year. The profected 8th house cusp (08Aquarius by alchabitius semi-arc) comes to the 11th house (12th sign). Mars is profected to an opposition of the Ascendant.
The Solar Revolution for the year shows the influence of the malefics. Since we don't know his location, i have used the birth location, and will only point out the basic delineation.
Saturn is in the nativity's ascending sign, Cancer, receiving a trine from an elevated Mars in watery Pisces (the natal 10th). The SR MC is with the profected Ascendant in Scorpio. The Moon is in the martial sign Aries nearing a perfect square with its natal position.
So that I don't have to exhaust every possible instance (or incorrect chart
) I will say the accident happened very close to the native's 40th birthday, perhaps on the way home from celebrating it, when the Moon entered into perfect square.

official times of warning for accident or tragedy-
my most refined estimation is for June 3rd until the 10th of June 2005-

my gut feeling says there is time to worry during the end of the Moon/Mars firdar just after his 36th birthday but before the end of July-
second official estimation;
the first of June until July 25th 2001


thanks again for the exercise Deb! glad I caught my mistake in time!!

good luck all!!!

Now I'm just back from a holiday I thought I'd give this a try. Although it feels like entering a bar half an hour before closing time I think I got something useful out of this.

I used a "three-stages rocket" view; primary, secondary, transit.

Natal chart observation:
This indeed shows the grand square (node included) but with the three-stages I get the Moon as the native's weak spot. Moon in Cancer with Ascendant seems quite promising. However she is unaspected by major aspects apart from a weak sextile to Mercury. This sextile to Mercury could indicate the relationship with the close friend who was with him at the accident. I think this was a sociable yet lonely or shy being on the background modest person. With all this 'water' elements it gives the connection with the accident by the river. Subtract 45? from the Moon's position and you get 14? Gemini. So by minor hard aspects 45/135 Moon is connected to the grand square. Sun near the South Node means that Eclipses are never far away. For syzygy users it is interesting to note that 30 may 1965 there was a solar eclipse. 14 june 1965 there was a lunar eclipse. In progressions this would mean a year 1976 which falls far out of the narrowed window of jan 2001-2006. However I wonder if the native then just escaped some danger. On the other side this eclipse didn't make a serious aspect to a natal position.

Primary directions:
As I don't really have much time at the moment I looked with a very rough view at the primaries and as usually I only looked at directed Mc and Ascendant. With all these hard aspects to the MC/IC axis this perhaps makes it a dangerous 'thing' in the primaries.

Given the info and the angles, I estimate the person born in Northern England / South Scotland ca. 55?North. Primary directions (with 1?Right Ascension = 1 year key) give at age of 40 a directed MC at about 1? Taurus and Ascendant 19? Leo. The directed Ascendant just passed a square to natal Neptune (by the way I also used the three modern planets but no asteroids), but more interesting is that directed MC just passed the square to natal Moon.

Secondary Progressions:
These are in fact what 'lead' me to the Moon as weak natal spot in the first place. At age 40-41 progressed Sun is conjunct natal Ascendant and pr. Moon in Capricorn is square to Ascendant. 41 would fall outside the given window but age 40 would be in 2005 just the last year of the window given by Deb. Progressed Jupiter had been square natal Mars short before but as pr. Jupiter is very slow I don't give it great attention.

Transits:
In the More Details thread Deb mentions aspects to the Grand Cross. I don't see a lot apart from those of Uranus and Pluto. So perhaps it makes me going in the complete wrong direction. However I keep with the year 2005.

Pluto,
hanging around 22?-24? didn't aspect a planet exactly but was close before opposition natal Venus and over a year after square to natal Mars.

Uranus,
often related to sudden accidents (which also served as a useful guide to me in Yuzuru's mystery rectification chart in July) was square to natal Sun that year. Note that Uranus just didn't manage to opposition aspect his natal position in 2005. He just missed it only 0?2' before exact opp. when he went retrograde in June.

Saturn,
is interesting. He transited conjunt Ascendant in spring and conjunct Moon in Summer. As we saw Moon made hard minor aspects to the Grand Cross, Suturn did it now too this year. My thoughts of the person being a bit lonely or keeping on the background could have been having a stimulance on this in spring. Retrograde Saturn was very close to Ascendant when going direct, being there for a long time. I think this give the feeling or urge to go for a holiday to a very rural area. I also think of a mountanious area (stones/rocks - Saturn) but of course this info is already given implicitly by the possible fall from great height.

Lunar (True) Node,
prominent in the natal has also some impressive positions in 2005. Not only square (from Aries) to natal Ascendant but also combined with eclipses in April, solar on the 8th in 18?Aries and lunar on the 24th in 4?Scorpius. So around square to Ascendant and Moon respectively.

Narrowing it down to a month I find July a very probable period. Saturn in conjunction with natal Moon mid July. But also joined by,

Mars,
Mid-July square natal Asc and two weeks later square natal Ascendant.

Sun,
conjunct Ascendant 13 july and conj. Moon 22nd. Note that the conjunction to the Ascendant corresponds with the conjunction of the 2ndary progressed Sun with Ascendant. Furthermore this Sun is square to the eclipses of April now three months later.

Moon,
for narrowing it down. I believe it was somewhere given by Deb that there is an aspect to natal Moon so i go for one of the hard aspects to natal Moon that fall in July. I doubt between 15, 21 and 27 July. The first date corresponds with the close Saturn transit to the Moon, Mars and Sun to Asc., the second fits with the transiting Sun to Moon and the last one fits with transit Mars to natal Moon. So I give it a thought about it next few days.

Concluding with July 2005 as the month and thinking over three possible dates of 15, 21 and 27 July.

Edit: Wedn 6 AM (UT)
I looked at the dates with the UT as basis. If the accident occurred in the US or New Zealand the date could be one day off. After a night's sleep I strike out the 21st and go with either 15 or 27 July 2005

Using secondary progressions, solar and lunar returns for the birthplace and transits, I'd say mid February 2003. Just guessing the month is fine with me, trying to identity the day and time of this event makes me feel a bit uncomfortable.