Skyscript Astrology Forum

IMO, we astrologers have only seen/understood the tip of the iceberg implementing Stars with astrology. There is great astrological antiquity pertaining to ?First Light? or Heliacal Phenomenon, after a star/planet disappears for weeks at a time due to the astrological position of the Earth with the Sun?then reappears with its ?First Light? Heliacal Rising. It would appear the ancients recognized some type of astrological hierarchy with their usual astrology associated with Heliacal Risings and Settings. Were the ancients casting mundane charts at the moment of a Heliacal Rising and deeming astrological symbolism? This would be a relative easy task to perform as long as the astrologer had a clear view to the Horizon. But today, we astrologers are not looking to the Horizon to precisely time the astrological event of a heliacal star rising. And none of our software programs will perform this astronomical task. It could be possible the ancients were using Heliacal Rising Charts as important Mundane Return Charts, just as we today use Solar Return Charts for our nativities to deem important astrological symbolism.

Regards, Steve

And none of our software programs will perform this astronomical task

You might look into Bernadette Brady's program "Starlight." That might perform this task (determine heliacal rising). Check to be sure.

You might look into Bernadette Brady's program "Starlight." That might perform this task (determine heliacal rising).

Thanks Tom, I will look into this possibility.

Steve

Above is the ?World?s Most Ancient Horoscope??Sidereal Zodiac. This scope represents the heliacal rising of the STAR Sirius, July 16th, 2767 BC Julian Calendar, beginning a new Sothic Cycle which occurs ?approximately every 1,461 years. This scope is depicted ( by Egypt?s tourist catalogues) as a ?Celestial Diagram? found on one of the chamber?s ceilings of the Ramesseum, also known as the Memnonmium, at Karnak, which was built by Rameses 11 (circa B.C. 1288). This same ?Celestial Diagram?, ?although differing in unessential details? was found in ?widely differing dynastic periods?, many on coffer lids at:

?the tomb of Senmut, Queen Hatshepsut?s superintendent (c. 1410 B.C.)

?in the temple of Rameses 11 at Abydos.?

?in the temple of Rameses 11 at Medinet Habu.?

?in the tombs of Rameses V1, V11, 1X at Thebes (c.1150 BC)

?in the sarcophagus of Prince Nectanebo.?

?and in the coffin of hor-nef-tef of the Saite period (663-420 BC).?

?and in two tombs at Alfih of the Ptolemaic period (305-30 BC).?

The Sothic Cycle was referred by the ancient Egyptian?s as the ?Cycle of Eternity.? Cyril Fagan?s brilliant astronomical mind correlated the above scope from these ?Celestial Diagrams? with his many ?fact finding tours? to Egypt. The last book Fagan wrote was ?Astrological Origins?. This book can still be obtained from used book outlets at a reasonable price. If anyone is interested, Fagan explains in detail how he correlated the above scope from Egypt?s Celestial Diagrams, in Chapter?s Seven & Eight.

As we can note with this scope, there is a brilliant rising quadruple conjunction of Venus, Saturn, Jupiter & Mars. And it is important to note this brilliant rising quadruple conjunction occurred at the beginning of a Sothic Cycle which occurs once every 1461 years. What a coincidence! It is also interesting to note app. 2767 BC, according to most Egyptologist?s began the First Dynasty. Some believe the 4th Dynasty; the era of the Pyramids at Giza began around 2700 BC. There are some very interesting astronomical correlations with the heliacal rising of Sirius in Egypt which I will post later.

Regards, Steve

There was a Frenchman named R. A. Schwaller De Lubicz, a brilliant and gifted mathematician. After reading a Renaissance text called ?The Divine Proportion?, illustrated by Leonardo Da Vinci, but written by an Italian Monk, Luca Paccioli-- propelled Lubicz into a life?s work studying the temples of ancient Egypt. Anyone who studies the Renaissance period can see a mystical tradition of Hermeticism which can definitely be traced backed to ancient Egypt. Lubicz studied the Temple at Luxor for 15 years and wrote two volumes of books titled ?The Temple of Man,? very difficult reading?I would not recommend. Lubicz basically concluded that ancient Egypt contains a Sacred Science that can be gleamed from a symbolist interpretation of her temples and writings from the Pyramid Texts. Where academia and their Egyptologist sees mainly superstition with the culture of ancient Egypt, Lubicz interprets a high wisdom tradition of Sacred Science. Lubicz wrote a book ?Sacred Science,? The King of Pharaonic Theocracy-- which I would recommend. In this book Lubicz states:

?The basis of astrology profoundly influenced every aspect of ancient Egyptian life.?

Yet personal horoscopes were forbidden. If this is true, then the astrologer can only conclude ancient Egypt?s astrology must pertain to mundane astrology?but maybe in a manner we don?t understand.

Lubicz states the heliacal return of the Star Sirius had a regular annual cycle, at Helioposis, of 365.25 days?the same annual time cycle as the Earth?s calendar and its annual revolution around the Sun. This Sirius year of 365.25 days is the only Star in the entire sky that allows this heliacal return cycle of Sirius at Helioposis, according to Lubicz. Some writers on ancient Egypt looked upon Helioposis as the true Greenwich of the planet or as the true Naval of our planet. Of course none of this can be proven to the rational mind of academia but IF Lubicz astronomical writings are true about the heliacal return of Sirius in ancient Egypt?then the only way it has a chance of speaking to a rational mind is to the astrologer. There could be a possibility that this heliacal cycle Sirius is some form of an astrological hierarchy pertaining to mundane astrology. I know of no astrologer who has done any research in this area.

Sirius is the brightest Star in our Heavens and Lubicz says the ancient Egyptian astronomers/astrologers looked upon Sirius as the Sun of our Galaxy and that our Sun in our Solar System is in a binary orbital relationship with Sirius. In other words, our esteem astronomers of academia who tells us the motion of precession with our Earth is caused by gravitational forces of the Sun & Moon are wrong. Precession would be caused by a binary relationship with our Sun & Sirius. An excellent book that offers other solid astronomical proofs with this possible binary relationship is ?Lost Star in Myth & Time.? If this binary relationship is true, there is indeed a good possibility we are looking at a higher hierarchy of astrological thought pertaining to other time cycles just as we deem astrological cycles with our Earth revolving around the Sun. For example: Fagan has proved to the serious astrologer the value of an accurately timed Solar Return for a Native. IF Lubicz is correct about the 365.25 time cycle of Sirius Helical Rising, the same time cycle allowing for precession for one year orbit of the Earth around the Sun?then there could be a possibility this Heliacal Rising of Sirius could offer symbolism as a possible Solar Return for our planet.


In my earlier post about Fagan?s 1461 Sothic year with the heliacal rising of Sirius in 2767 BC, being the oldest horoscope in the world, I offer more food for thought. The only way the ancient Egyptians could have calculated this Sothic year-- they would have to have reference to a prior Sothic year in 4228 BC.

If Lubicz is correct, one thing is for sure, the ancient Egyptian astronomy predicates a long process of refined observational techniques (better than today?s techniques), probably prior to the first Sothic year of 4228 BC.

Steve

Above is the ?World?s Most Ancient Horoscope??Sidereal Zodiac. This scope represents the heliacal rising of the STAR Sirius, July 16th, 2767 BC Julian Calendar, beginning a new Sothic Cycle which occurs ?approximately every 1,461 years. This scope is depicted ( by Egypt?s tourist catalogues) as a ?Celestial Diagram? found on one of the chamber?s ceilings of the Ramesseum, also known as the Memnonmium, at Karnak, which was built by Rameses 11 (circa B.C. 1288).

Hello Steve,

The role of Sirius in Egyptian culture is very interesting. It might be a good discussion topic all on its own as a thread we could devote fuller discussion to.

However, can we really demonstrate the recorded heliacal rising of Sirius at this point in history was really a horoscope? You (and Cyril Fagan) present it is such but you use conventions that would surely have been unknown to the ancient Egyptians would they not? In particular there is no evidence of a 12 sign zodiac, houses, aspects or calculation of angles. I would need to research the point further but I am not sure even the decans date that far back do they? If I recall the first records of decans date from coffin lids in the Middle Kingdom. So there is arguably no zodiac system of any description dividing up the sky for the date Cyril Fagans presents ie 2767 BC.

I am not seeking to deny the annual heliacal rising of Sirius ( Sothic cycle) had important religious and astrological meaning to ancient Egyptians. I just regard describing this as a 'horoscope' is an anachronism. Lots of ancient cultures marked the heliacal rising of stars in their calendar. For example, the Incas and Aztecs. However, we dont consider there records of such important dates as 'horoscopes' do we?

Yet personal horoscopes were forbidden. If this is true, then the astrologer can only conclude ancient Egypt?s astrology must pertain to mundane astrology?but maybe in a manner we don?t understand.

Or maybe the idea of personal horoscopes had just not occured to them yet? There were other divination systems available anyway such as beliefs around fortunate/unfortunate days to be born on a calendrical basis.

You might be interested to know the Egyptian astrologer Hephaistio of Thebes (4th century CE) describes an astrological approach to mundane astrology based on the colour of the star Sirius at its heliacal rising. He ties this into the planets too based on their colour, and planetary phase. It probably represents a survival of a much older Egyptian astrological tradition that pre-dates hellenistic astrology. However, he is writing over 3000 years after your proposed 'horoscope'.

Mark

Hi Mark, it would be most difficult for me to explain in a short post how Fagan derived the 2767 BC horoscope from the Celestial Diagrams. It takes a detailed studious reading of Chapter 7 & 8 in his book ?Astrological Origins? to see the brilliance of his discovery for the 2767 BC horoscope. Each individual reader will have to make their own determination if Fagan reasoning for this Celestial Diagram is indeed a 2767 BC horoscope. I had to carefully read these two chapters 3-4 times before I completely understood Fagan?s brilliance in understanding the Celestial Diagrams as true 2767 BC scopes.

On page 27 of Lubicz book ?Sacred Science?, he offers a partial of the same Celestial Diagram (excluding the Horus figure for Venus) that Fagan deciphered as the 2767 BC horoscope, with hieroglyphic writings above 3 Horus figures in the Celestial Diagram. Underneath the diagram it reads: ?Figure 1. Sirius (Isis-Seped. r) preceding Orion and followed by Jupiter, Saturn, and Mars.? Lubicz does not explain with footnotes how he determined the 3 Horus figures as Jupiter, Saturn, and Mars?but it had to be determined by translation of the hieroglyphic writings above the Horus figures. Both John West and I, as a PRIVATE TEST (fun experiment) to confirm the Horus figures in this partial of the Celestial Diagram as planets, took a photocopy of this partial celestial diagram and sent it to an independent translator for his own interpretation of the hieroglyphic writings over the 3 Horus figures. His independent translation confirmed the 3 Horus figures as planets. West & I did not tell him one word why we wanted the translation. It is obvious the ancient Egyptian astronomers/astrologers had identified the visible planets but of course with completely different forms of writings (names-symbols) as we use today. For example the translator translated the Horus figure of Saturn as ?Path?, which I think (not sure) the Greeks used for the planet Saturn. If it had not been the discovery of the Rosetta Stone and the work of Champollion?s this planetary translation of the Horus figures on this partial Celestial Diagram would not have happen. Orthodox academia of Egyptolist certainly is not going to associate themselves, IN PUBLIC, with any kind of translation of hieroglyphic writings with planets/astrology. They do not want to be branded as crazies like us astrologers. Of course most of the so called elite academia has no knowledge of astronomy. Only the one?s who believe the ancient Egyptians had a profound knowledge of astronomy will pursue anything to do with astrology out of ancient Egypt. ! Most of academia condemns the work of West & Lubicz but these men both have deep beliefs the ancient Egyptians had adept astronomers/astrologers. They are on our (astrologers) side, privately. I will try to get permission and post the independent translator?s work on the Lubicz partial celestial diagram in Sacred Science. But understand this Lubicz partial Celestial Diagram is only part of the whole Celestial Diagram Fagan used in his book, ?Astrological Origins,? to determine the Sirius Sothic 2767 BC horoscope.

Mark wrote:
The role of Sirius in Egyptian culture is very interesting. It might be a good discussion topic all on its own as a thread we could devote fuller discussion to.

I agree?but what we really need to do is find a way to get a true time of the helical rising of Sirius each year at various locations where we can at least see the scope. I have e-mailed Brady with some questions about her program and heliacal risings-- but have not heard back from her. Does anyone use Brady?s Starlight program? We need to prove to ourselves what Lubicz has written about the heliacal rising of Sirius is true!

Regards, Steve

Steve wrote:

it would be most difficult for me to explain in a short post how Fagan derived the 2767 BC horoscope from the Celestial Diagrams. It takes a detailed studious reading of Chapter 7 & 8 in his book ?Astrological Origins? to see the brilliance of his discovery for the 2767 BC horoscope. Each individual reader will have to make their own determination if Fagan reasoning for this Celestial Diagram is indeed a 2767 BC horoscope. I had to carefully read these two chapters 3-4 times before I completely understood Fagan?s brilliance in understanding the Celestial Diagrams as true 2767 BC scopes.

Hello Steve,

Interesting as this subject is what relationship does it have to the development of fixed stars within horoscopic astrology we inherited from the Greeks? I had thought we were discussing the history of how the Greeks worked with fixed stars in early horoscopic astrology and how this tradition passed on through the Romans, Byzantines, Persians, Arabs and Latin Europeans in traditional sources?

Apart from the idiosycratic example I gave you from Hephaistio of Thebes I am not clear what relevance the Ancient Egyptians possible beliefs on stars have here. Surely the issue is demonstrating a tradition that passed on to the Greeks?

I accept the astrological decans (in some modified form) originated in Egypt and the astrological bounds (terms) seem to be Egyptian in origin too. However, the problem that advocates of an Ancient Egyptian origin to astrology like yourself have is that that the only evidence of Egyptian ideas influencing the astrological tradition are historically late (late Ptolemaic dynasty or Roman Egypt).

I am more inclined to to agree with Ken Bowser that the Mesopotamians were a much stronger influence on Greek astrology than the Egyptians. In regards fixed stars though the use of decans in hellenistic astrology can be seen. Teucer of Babylon ( 1st century CE?) was clearly using 10 degree divisions of the zodiac with rising constellations dividing up each decan. However, even this was a fusion of the decans within the framework of a zodiac owing its origins to the Mesopotamians. There is strong evidence that important figures like Hipparchus and Ptolemy were utilising Mesopotamian astronomical data. There also seems to have been some Mesopotamian influence on the delineation of fixed stars. As Levente has stated the research of the German scholar Franz Boll indicates the colour associations of stars found in Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos are Mesopotamian in origin. There are also the Babylonian astrologer, historian and priest of Bel - Berossus who seems to have established an astrological school on the Greek Island of Kos in the 3rd century BCE. His pupils and their pupils had an effect on astrology in the classical world.

Steve wrote:

I agree?but what we really need to do is find a way to get a true time of the helical rising of Sirius each year at various locations where we can at least see the scope. I have e-mailed Brady with some questions about her program and heliacal risings-- but have not heard back from her. Does anyone use Brady?s Starlight program? We need to prove to ourselves what Lubicz has written about the heliacal rising of Sirius is true!

I have Starlight. It does indicate the heliacal rising stars on a particular day from a chart. However, it doesn't provide general reports for various locations. As you suggest this is a complex issue as visibility of a star depends on latitude/longitude and other factors such as atmospheric conditions can be influential too. Stalight ( like most software) gives the rising times for stars for a particular chart. If your focus is really heliacal rising stars I wouldn't recommend buying Starlight.

There is is some excellent free software called PLSV that will do this for you:

http://www.alcyone.de/planetary_lunar_a ... ility.html

Regards

Mark

There is some excellent free software called PLSV that will do this for you:

Thanks Mark, I will check this out.

Steve

Hello Mark

Mark wrote:
The role of Sirius in Egyptian culture is very interesting. It might be a good discussion topic all on its own as a thread we could devote fuller discussion to.

However, can we really demonstrate the recorded heliacal rising of Sirius at this point in history was really a horoscope? Y
Mark

well, a well known example we actually have, even if it is not a real horoscope. It's the thema mundi, which Ascendant is placed in Cancer (see Bouche-Leclerq L'astrologie grecque)

Bouch?-Leclercq says there were two different traditions, one where planets are in their domiciles, the other where they are in exaltion- the former is the Egyptian version, in fact Firmicus says he took from Petosiris, the latter is from Middle West, but both keep the Cancer rising.


Bezza in one of his lectures mentions a Zoroastrian version of the creation called Bundahishn

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundahishn

when again Sirius is mentioned as rising together with the Ascendant at 19 Cancer.

margherita

when again Sirius is mentioned as rising together with the Ascendant at 19 Cancer.

Hi Margherita,

Interesting. Although the addition of zodiacal placement sounds a much later tradition no? The Bundahishn is a fascinating text but seems to have interpolations at various historical points. For example, some seem to date after the Islamic conquest of Persia.

Its true Sirius is one of the royal stars of the ancient Persians! Probably the most important of them all to the ancient Persians. There is an Avestan (Zorasteran) hymn to Sirius. The Italian scholar Antonio Panaino has written on this topic extensively. The ancient Persians called Sirius "Tistrya''. Most writers on fixed stars list Regulus, Antares, Aldebaran and Fomalhaut as the 'Four Persian Royal Stars'. This is an error.

The source for this idea is not the ancient Persians but classical astrologers such as Firmicus (4th century CE) who mentions the four 'royal' stars mentioned as Regulus, Antares, Aldebaran and Fomalhaut. However, linking the classical idea of these stars on the ecliptic with the ancient Persian stars is mistaken.

Sirius was almost certainly one of the Persian Royal stars. Unfortunately, this misunderstanding is repeated over and over again by astrological writers on fixed stars in modern astrology. Its a trap lots of astrologers have fallen into. For example, Bernadette Brady gets thiese difffering traditions mixed up in her Book of Fixed Stars.

Another point I would mention is that traces of the Egyptian and Babylonian constellations are found in various sources such as Teucer of Babylon, Manilius, Firmicus and in medieval sources such as Abu' Mashar, Michael Scot and Ibn Ezra. Although the Greek constellations eventually predominated the interest in the Sphaera Barbarica persisted. Indeed there was some of a revival of interest (at least in terms of art) in the renaissance period.

The Roman astrologer Nigidius Figulus (1st century BCE) is supposed to have written two books on the constellations and their role in astrology. First a book on the Greek Constellations and a second on the Sphaera Barbarica. The books apparently discussed the use of the paranatellonta. Had these two books survived I think our understanding of early atttitudes to fixed stars and constellations would be much clearer. I also think they might have definitively disproved the sceptics who now leap to the assumption that fixed stars were not important in early astrology because of the paucity of surviving sources.

Mark

Mark wrote:[
Hi Margherita,

Interesting. Although the addition of zodiacal placement sounds a much later tradition no?

Its true Sirius is one of the royal stars of the ancient Persians! Probably the most important of them all to the ancient Persians. There is an Avestan (Zorasteran) hymn to Sirius. The Italian scholar Antonio Panaino has written on this topic extensively. The ancient Persians called Sirius "Tistrya''. Most writers on fixed stars list Regulus, Antares, Aldebaran and Fomalhaut as the 'Four Persian Royal Stars'. This is an error.

The source for this idea is not the ancient Persians but classical astrologers such as Firmicus (4th century CE) who mentions the four 'royal' stars mentioned as Regulus, Antares, Aldebaran and Fomalhaut. However, linking the classical idea of these stars on the ecliptic with the ancient Persian stars is mistaken.

The text I mentioned it is not on fixed stars, it's a story of the world creation. I mentioned just because it is example of the thema mundi where planets are considered in their exaltation (ie this is not the Egyptian version).

Anyway it's interesting that Sirius was linked with it in both versions.

My source is not Brady. As usually Bezza, and the Italian translation of this text (editors the usual Panaino and Bezza) by Enrico Raffaelli, an Italian with a degree from La Sapienza in Rome, now Professor in Toronto.

But if you are asking me if I believe that Egypt (or Babylonia) was the mother of all the civilization, well I don't believe.
For a strange coincidence in Perugia Prof. Bezza lectured about precession and astrological ages, anyway I should think a little about his words. Anyway I can say to you he did NOT mention 2012 and the end of the world

margherita