Skyscript Astrology Forum

Posted: **Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:09 pm**

That's right, typical American president has all detriment planets related to career (in this case Venus and Mercury). No need to be a good person to become a president...
G.Bush has most planets in 12th house...

Posted: **Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:12 pm**

Tom wrote:
Infamy - far and wide?
Yes but not evil. There are degrees of infamy.

He was probably infamously, shamelessly successful in his business

Posted: **Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:21 pm**

Tom wrote:We?ll start be revealing the chart of the politician. This is chart No. 1. I mentioned, after a bit, that he was a 19th century man and that Americans might recognize his name and I doubted most Europeans would be able to do that. Yet historians consider him one of the more successful US Presidents. His name is James K Polk. His birth data is:

Nov 2, 1795
12:20:17 PM
Pineville, South Carolina USA
29 Capricorn 52 Rises

Yes this is a rectified chart. I felt a little guilty about that, but the chart works and this isn?t the chart of the actor we were looking for, so I got over it.

I stuck this data in at astro.com and it gives me 0'04 Aq rising ?

Outers wise the only contact I see as potentially relevant in relation to the wiki info, is the Neptune conjunction to the Sun in the 9th and the square to the Moon. One way of thinking about this is how ones idealism (Neptune) and self-concept (Sun) could be compromised by ones mundane securities (Moon). It looks like he was pro-slavery.

Posted: **Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:30 pm**

Tom wrote:
Strong Moon on 7 indicates popularity. Contrast this with the weak Moon in chart 3 in 10. What does that tell us?

i was thinking of how from my pov - chart 1 would be the most popular of the 3.. i say this given jupiter rising, moon setting, venus/sun in the midheaven area which beats chart 2 or 3 in terms of popularity.. btw - i enter the rectified data( i don't like rectified charts usually and find them suspect) gives me 0 aq 55 which is about a degree off the 29 cap that is displayed on page 1.. at any rate one of the many interesting aspects of diurnal/nocturnal and planets in or out of sect theory is how a few folks are focused on moon in chart 1, but not as much in chart 2 where it is 'technically' in sect and the light of choice.. for me chart 2 with saturn rising is a more difficult chart, perhaps the most of the 3, as i see the strong need to relate in chart 2 that i don't sense in chart 3 quite as much.. that said, moon in chart 3 is applying directly to venus in taurus which is more favourable then chart 2 where it applies to saturn rising.. what all of this tells me is if astrologers are going to entertain moon as the key ingredient for politician they are going to have to question the relevance of sect theory and its importance using these 3 examples with moon as key ingredient for a politician..

tom, thanks for giving us the update and i hope you had a fun st. patricks day celebration.. if it is possible to avoid doing these quiz's with rectified charts, that would make me happier.. i don't trust rectifications generally speaking..

Posted: **Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:36 pm**

Mark wrote: 3 North Node on 7th house cusp/South Node on ASC degree. Indicating a life of service to others. Personal self sacrifice.

Here is 'others' the 7th house, and 'personal' the Asc ? If so, what is or where is found within this the 'life' and how do 'service' and 'self-sacrifice' fit in?

Can you give a bried outline of how you think about the Nodes, and where you have sourced these ideas ?

Posted: **Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:33 pm**

I stuck this data in at astro.com and it gives me 0'04 Aq rising ?

Try Local Mean Time (LMT) I should have noted that.

Posted: **Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:38 pm**

tom, thanks for giving us the update and i hope you had a fun st. patricks day celebration.. if it is possible to avoid doing these quiz's with rectified charts,

The idea was to spot the chart of the actor. The secondary charts are borderline irrelevant, but it is true that once we start putzing with all of them, it is relevant. This chart is not an off hand rectification. "Dr. H": published it along with the rectified charts of every American President and his spouse. I originally thought of this chart and the other non-actor chart as "filler." Also, I didn't think of it being rectified until after I had posted it. Still we can use it as "non-actor; cant' we?

Posted: **Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:42 pm**

James_M wrote:

what all of this tells me is if astrologers are going to entertain moon as the key ingredient for politician they are going to have to question the relevance of sect theory and its importance using these 3 examples with moon as key ingredient for a politician..

Your point being I think that the politician turns out to be the only chart here with an out of sect Moon? True but then unless we are going to say only people born at night can be politicians we do need to apply some common sense to this! Sect is only one factor that must be judged. One might make the same criticism of the Musicians chart in the last Mystery challenge. There an over literalist view of essential dignity would rule out a chart where the Moon was ASC ruler. Ultimately, each chart is unique and needs an individual assessment. As William Lilly suggested the astrologer should 'mix art with discretion'.

Mark

Posted: **Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:45 pm**

That's right, typical American president has all detriment planets related to career

If there is one thing these exercises should prove it is that the 10th house is only one factor pertaining to profession. And secondly since this particular President is considered to be successful, why would these planets in detriment have anything to do with the "typical American President," assuming there is such a thing?

You're going to find the same issue with the businessman. We all have our biases and chief among them are "crooked politicians" and "crooked businessmen." By any objective standard, these are little more than glittering generalities. The chart, however, is as individual as a fingerprint. The difficulty is looking beyond our biases. We'll see more of this when the businessman's char is revealed.

Posted: **Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:03 pm**

hi tom,

thanks for your additional thoughts to which i can appreciate and yes to your question too.. i have read some strong criticism on dr h's rectification work in the book you mention.. it is all relative i suppose.. btw when you get a chance, a few of us were wondering where you got the data for joshua powell on another thread. thanks.. - solar fire gives me 0 aq 55 for ascendant with this time you have provided.. lmt is being used.

hi mark,

here is the thing.. yes, every chart needs to be treated individually! however i need to assess what has astrological merit and what needs to be ignored.. sect of moon doesn't seem to matter too much if folks are going to base someone being more likely to be a politician based on moon position on an angle which is how i read your comments.. true, there are many factors that go into deciphering what is what, but i wanted to point how sect doesn't seem to count for much, or - and this is another idea assuming the rectified time is valid - jupiter rising may have more to do with being a politician then not.. we all have some weighing system that may be a lot more subjective then it is objective.. anyway, it is fun to look at this in retrospect as well..

Posted: **Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:22 pm**

Here is 'others' the 7th house, and 'personal' the Asc ? If so, what is or where is found within this the 'life' and how do 'service' and 'self-sacrifice' fit in?

Can you give a bried outline of how you think about the Nodes, and where you have sourced these ideas ?

My approach to the nodes is broadly traditional. In terms of energy flow one can see the North Node as a point of expansion and augmentation and the South Node relating to discharge and limitation.

Having said that I dont find a lot of traditional texts describing the nodes terribly helpful. Firstly, they tend to be OTT benefic/malefic in their descriptions. Secondly, the nodes are seldom if ever treated as an axis in traditional sources. I have therefore been scouring around Indian and modern western astrology for the most useful approaches to the nodes.

I personally, have found some merit in mixing the two meanings together as an axis as part of their delineation. Hence in Chart 1 I get the SN linked to the ASC weakening the sense of self. It doesn't mean such a person cannot be famous. Many are. However, the flow of energy is going to the North Node ie others. So if we see the 1st-7th as an axis the focus is self vs others.

Beyond this I look at dispositors of the nodes. In President Polk's chart Saturn disposits the SN from the 6th WS house. Saturn is about duty, responsibility, and hard work. The 6th house is about hard work too and even drudgery. Its also about illness. Hence I pulled all this together to get self sacrifice. I suspect all this effort in office weakened Polk's metabolism which was a contributory factor in his early death. Looking at the North Node in the 7th the dispositor is the Moon. The Moon is in its own domcile of Cancer and in the 7th house too. This is a pretty clear indication of popularity.

You probably recall the Cardinal in the last Mystery chart had the same nodal configuration across the ASC-DESC. Another famous example is Queen Elizabeth II. Outside of traditional astrology I have been most influenced by Judith Hill and her book on the Nodes. While I reject her 'alphabet zodiac' approach to house meanings she has some good ideas nonetheless and useful chart delineations.

Mark

Posted: **Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:56 pm**

James-M wrote:

sect of moon doesn't seem to matter too much if folks are going to base someone being more likely to be a politician based on moon position on an angle which is how i read your comments.. true, there are many factors that go into deciphering what is what, but i wanted to point how sect doesn't seem to count for much,

It seems rather ironic to be suggesting I largely ignored sect when in reality I built my delineation around it.

The Sun is the sect light in the 11th by WS and 10th by Placidus. I focused a lot on Mars as the dispositor of the sect light. While I didn't go into this there are also some mitigating factors for the Moon here. In particular it is in a feminine sign and just below the horizon in a day chart. Its also in the the more feminine part of its phase to the Sun ie decreasing in light. In a day chart this Moon is about as good as you could ask for. So its not a question of ignoring sect as you suggest. Angularity has always been a crucial factor in judging charts from the earliest times. I tend to give it more importance than either essential dignity or sect. Delineation is never going to be a simple bean counting exercise.

Mark

Skyscript Astrology Forum

Mystery Chart Exercise March 11 2012