Still busy reading, everybody?

Well, I continue writing.

Take the 3rd house and the sign Gemini, with its stars Castor and Pollux, the archetypal Brothers. Waybread briefly mentioned it earlier on this thread...

I would like to add that the ancient Egyptians (who the houses' meanings may go back to) thought of this sign/constellation as brother and sister, thus covering the ascription of 3rd to Siblings in general.

i don't know if anyone had a chance to listen to the 1 hour 48 minute podcast from chris brennan discussing this topic, but i was able to do it in 2 parts!

http://theastrologypodcast.com/2014/06/ ... ns-houses/

first i want to commend chris on his receptivity to alternative viewpoints regardless whether they fit into any particular school of astrological thinking. that takes a certain temperament in itself and i really admire chris for expressing everything he does on this particular podcast.

what it really comes down to is someone's ability to live with uncertainty, while remaining open to the possibility of an astrology chart revealing it's nature in countless different ways dependent on the receptivity of the person examining it. most people, astrologers included have a natural aversion to working with uncertainty..

i found the last 20-30 minutes of the talk especially informative on this basis. perhaps it is due chris going thru a saturn return in this time frame, but i think it is a willingness to consider alternative views while not being locked into wearing a particular uniform ( traditional or modern, or eclectic for that matter!)

i was thinking about this with regard to the music teaching i do. one can't give water to a person who isn't thirsty. one must have a thirst for knowledge.. this is the key ingredient that keeps a person on a path to seeking knowledge regardless of how it is served, or the particular cup it is given in.. it is the desire for greater understanding or knowledge that needs to exist... this does or doesn't develop in others at the same rate of speed.

near the end of chris's talk he asks for input from others who are knowledgeable on both systems of thinking in regard to houses...

i never thought of houses as a type of alphabet directly reflecting the signs of the zodiac in the natural order of these same signs, but i do see connections between the 2. i have always thought that planets in close contact with the angles have greater bearing on a chart due the fact of their angularity. i have used aspects that are outside the bounds of traditional astrology - the 45 and 135 in particular and have found that planets making these types of direct contact with the angles will also allow an outlet to the angles, but this is a very modern as opposed to traditional outlook.

i suppose what i would say is that their is no simple way of reading houses, but that all of these different systems i have been exposed to have their merits. as mark (and chris pointed out in his talk), it's hard to reconcile the idea of a connection of saturn to the 12th, or jupiter to the 11th - which is my understanding of some of the traditional interpretations of these houses with the natural house rulership view of what is either the exact reverse, or with neptune - a more mixed message.

whole sign houses make a huge amount of sense to me.. the 12th house is a different sign from the ascendant. in the case of an early degree in the sign rising, it's more complex... much would depend on whether a planet was in the preceding sign or not and at what degree it was, but overall i think the change in sign makes for a different focus, harder to integrate given it's non ptolemaic relationship with the ascendant. most of modern astrology uses placidus houses, or a close variant of that. i have been working with equal houses for what seems like forever. i believe it was robert pelteirer(sp?) who would probably be classed as a modern astrologer influenced by indian astrology - that led to this. you see this concept of modern and traditional is really not all that simple to quickly use to categorize folks!

in trying to understand the use of houses better, i think folks need to consider all of the knowledge that we have available. one can identify closely with some system if they feel it works for them.. but i think the hellenistic view is indeed different from the medieval view which is different from whatever one wants to define as the modern view. .in other words there are many ''modern'' or "traditional" views and not just one! on top of it i continue to believe an eclectic view is the richest one as it keeps a persons mind open.. the idea of what might have relevance in a state of receptivity as opposed to being boxed into saying you can only view things one particular way seems limiting to me... this seems to be where chris - who i think has defined himself in the past as a more hellenistic specialist - is headed - towards a type of eclecticism. kudos to him if indeed i am reading his conversation somewhat accurately at this point in his life.

thanks for the really interesting podcast chris and for having the courage to express your uncertainty in a world that typically takes a negative view on uncertainty..

additional comment - regarding the thema mundi and joys of the planets - these seem to offer a type of foundation for ideas of houses that came later.. what i would like to point out is even though these are 'traditional astrology ideas' - they don't sync up perfectly with one another.. one must consider all of the different systems of thought in some way that makes sense to them personally. they don't all fit together perfectly..

Hello everyone,

On the Moon and travel:

Above all Ares is the general significator of travel in ancient Astrology.
As far as I remember in ancient times Ares was called the "wandering one" or something like that, due to its irregular heliacal phase.

The Moon also participates as a significator of travel, but with some caveats. It is mentioned by Ptolemy but also by Valens (in an extremely complex paragraph in Book II chapters 29-30), Umar (p.67 in Persian Nativities II by Ben Dykes) and Abu Ali (don't know the page right now).

As far as the Moon and writing, I know it is a late period but I am reminded of Dante and his assignation of the planets and the 7 liberal arts, with the Moon representing grammar.

Hermes could very well represent travel, but not physical, rather astral or remote viewing, i.e. 9th house. That is perhaps why Bonatti assigns Hermes as the general significator of the 9th house and not Zeus.
While on this track, one could also check the Tarot and the Magus card, which is represented by Hermes.


P.S. I almost missed that topic because it is the general forum

Zagata wrote:

Hello everyone,

Above all Ares is the general significator of travel in ancient Astrology.
As far as I remember in ancient times Ares was called the "wandering one" or something like that, due to its irregular heliacal phase.

Could you please cite what ancient author said that please? Its undeniable I think that Ptolemy gives the Moon as the principal indicator of travel in the horoscope and I think the reference by Valens is doing the same. However, both Ptolemy and Valens do reference Mars (Ares) as a travel planet too. Its possibly an example of separate sources giving different emphasis.

Zagata wrote:

Hermes could very well represent travel, but not physical, rather astral or remote viewing, i.e. 9th house. That is perhaps why Bonatti assigns Hermes as the general significator of the 9th house and not Zeus.
While on this track, one could also check the Tarot and the Magus card, which is represented by Hermes.

Interesting point about Mercury being mental travel not physical. A clear distinction with the Moon linked to the physical body. I hadn't noticed Bonatti reference to Mercury and the 9th. Where is that cited?

Mark

Hi Mark,

For Ares being the general significator of travel, see Persian Nativities book I page 287 (Abu Ali) and Persian Nativities book II page 67 (Umar).

Masha'allah in Persian Nativities book I (pages 158-161) seems to use the Moon much more than Ares, but also the Moon's configurations with Ares and in some cases with both Ares and Kronos.

As for Valens, the Lot of foreign lands includes both malefics.

I can't find that reference to Ares being called a wanderer or something like that due to its strange heliacal phases, but I am certain I read it in Hellenistic or Babylonian sources or heard it from Robert Schmidt. I am sure Chris Brennan will know about this.

For Hermes and the 9th place this is from Zoller's Diploma Course. For the reference, Bonatti's on Nativities see page 1321, chapter 2.

I can't find that reference to Ares being called a wanderer or something like that due to its strange heliacal phases, but I am certain I read it in Hellenistic or Babylonian sources or heard it from Robert Schmidt. I am sure Chris Brennan will know about this.

All of the five planets, excluding the luminaries, were anciently referred to as "wanderers", because unlike the luminaries which are always direct, or the fixed stars which have imperceptible movement, their motion is subject to apparent change. The word planet is derived from the Greek verb ?????? plana? "to wander/stray". The distinction between planets and fixed stars was noted by the terms ??????? ???????? asteres aplaneis "fixed stars", and ??????? ???????? asteres planetai, "wandering stars".

Pliny refers to how the word planet is a bit of a misnomer because the courses of the five planets are regular and can be known in advance, saying:

• Upheld by the same vapour between Earth and heaven, at definite spaces apart, hang the seven stars which owing to their motion we call "planets", although no stars wander less than they do.
  (Natural History II IV 12).

Zagata wrote:

Hi Mark,

For Ares being the general significator of travel, see Persian Nativities book I page 287 (Abu Ali) and Persian Nativities book II page 67 (Umar).

Masha'allah in Persian Nativities book I (pages 158-161) seems to use the Moon much more than Ares, but also the Moon's configurations with Ares and in some cases with both Ares and Kronos.

Yes but you stated 'ancient astrology'. Hence I formed the impression you
were discussing some hellenistic source not Perso-Arabic ones.

Zagata wrote:

As for Valens, the Lot of foreign lands includes both malefics.

Yes I recall that. Need to check this out but I think its in the section where cites techniques from an older astrologer called Abraham?

Zagata wrote:

I can't find that reference to Ares being called a wanderer or something like that due to its strange heliacal phases, but I am certain I read it in Hellenistic or Babylonian sources or heard it from Robert Schmidt. I am sure Chris Brennan will know about this.

Well if Chris does know about he must have forgotten when he last posted here. Earlier in the thread he seemed to go further than I had by his suggestion the Moon had a unique role as a travel planet. As I pointed out earlier here both Ptolemy and Valens also seemed to consider other planets and especially Mars.

Zagata wrote.

For Hermes and the 9th place this is from Zoller's Diploma Course. For the reference, Bonatti's on Nativities see page 1321, chapter 2.

Thanks for the reference.

Mark

@Deb, I know of course about the planets and the fixed stars and how they were called, but thanks for the reference. I brought this up about Ares specifically because this could be one of the reasons that planet is associated with travel.

@ Mark, by "ancient Astrology" I mean, with few exceptions, the period till 1000 AD. I avoid the term "traditional" because of its ambiguity and inclusiveness of periods which deviated way to much and simply paraphrased for the most part.

I think I found that reference about Ares, but I am not certain whether this is the only one I had in mind - so many books and so much information!

I will give the full quote it as I suppose not many people have this valuable book:

"Because of its high eccentricity of the orbit (0.093; 3rd highest after Pluto and Mercury) Mars has the most unpredictable movements and irregular heliacal patterns. That's why Mars was the key evidence for Kepler to build his planetary theory. Among the Mesopotamians, for the same reasons, Mars was known as the Incalculable (Mul la Shid.mesh)...
Mars is also the planet with the greatest variation of brightness."



"The Babylonian Sky Observer Volume 1, April 2006" by Rumen Kolev, the chapter is called The Cycles of Mars' Achronychal Rises", page 31.

Zagata wrote:

@ Mark, by "ancient Astrology" I mean, with few exceptions, the period till 1000 AD. I avoid the term "traditional" because of its ambiguity and inclusiveness of periods which deviated way to much and simply paraphrased for the most part.

It?s a free world and you can obviously use what definitions you like. However, I don?t know of any historian that would date the end of the ancient world as late as 1000AD. Indeed that is often seen as the high middle ages. So you are not using the term ?ancient? in the way academic historians do. As a result your use of the term 'ancient' is inevitably going to create confusion amongst other members here.

The most commonly chosen date for the end of the ancient world/beginning of the middle ages is undoubtably the final fall of the western Roman Empire in 476AD. Hence historians have traditionally saw the beginning of the middle ages as linked to the collapse of the Western Roman Empire. Of course there is a degree of subjectivity in any attempt to draw lines through history like this.

One could date the end of the ancient world to various events from an earlier period such as the death of Theodosius I in 395 (the last time the Roman Empire was politically unified between the east and west), or the sack of Rome in 410.

In contrast some historians date the middle ages slightly later than 476 CE and use as the cut off point the death of the Byzantine Emperor Justinian in 565 AD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justinian_I

The odd scholar has held out for as late as the mid 7th century AD when the armies of the first Islamic caliphate swept across the middle east and north Africa. In that process the defeat of the Byzantines at the battle of Yarmouk in 636 AD seems to be one of the most decisive battles in world history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Yarmouk

By 800AD we have the start of the Carolingian Empire which was next great power in the west after Rome. The Carolingians introduced the feudal system in Europe that continued down to the 15th century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolingian_Empire

In astrological terms ?ancient astrology? is used to describe astrology followed in the Hellenistic world and the Roman Empire. See for example Tamsyn Barton?s ?Ancient astrology??. The last astrologer usually defined in this period is Rhetorius who lived in possibly the 6th or early 7th century in Byzantium. He appears to have been the last astrological source writing before Islam conquered parts of the Byzantine Empire in the middle east and north Africa in the mid 7th century.

As for the term ?traditional? astrology I accept there are significant differences between say Vettius Valens and William Lilly. We can certainly sub-divide this term into at least four sub periods such as Hellenistic, Perso-Arabic, Latin Medieval and Renaissance/Early Modern. Overall, though I think there is a remarkable continuity in the tradition when you consider it stemmed from the 2nd century BC to around 1700 AD. Compare this to a religion like Christianity which has split into numerous sects in its 2000 year history with often divergent views. I think the term has its uses to distinguish it from astrology that developed after the discovery of Uranus in 1781.

Mark

Everyone has a choice indeed.

I am well familiar with the so called history, or I should rather say the prevailing systematized and manipulated version of history.

I don't know of a single person in their right mind, who has dedicated their life to pursuing Eternal Knowledge, who takes the so called academics seriously. Their version of history and so called science and what not is just one of many.

Robert Zoller, in his 2 Courses, calls the period from 200 BCE to 1700 AD "Medieval Astrology".
I prefer to call all Astrology up to 1000 AD ancient, but as I said - with a few names from the 2nd millienium added.
Rumen Kolev uses the same term - Ancient Astrology instead of the traditional, and as far as I know he goes up to the 1600s or perhaps a little earlier.

For those Astrology practitioners who are not yet free from the indoctrinations about the impartiality, the caring for and preserving of knowledge, as espoused by academics and their standards, it will be eye-opening to say the least if they got to know some covered up facts which turn the prevailing world paradigm upside down. Rumen Kolev's books are a terrific source when it comes to Astrology and Astrotheology in this respect.
For the history and the significance of Astrology in human history, Benson Bobrick's "The Fated Sky" book is by far the best.

I have nothing further to add to this topic.

Zagata wrote:

I have nothing further to add to this topic.

I certainly have nothing further to add either regarding your idiosyncratic classification of history.

Mark

Mars is known to have an "anomalous" phase in relation to the Sun, and this is mentioned briefly in Paulus, but I'm not sure if this gets extended to the idea of travel in particular.

I was always under the impression that the only reason that Mars came up within the context of discussions about travel was because many of the formulas for travel implicitly seem to conceptualize it as something that was negative, and since Mars is a malefic it naturally gets associated with negative things. This is actually a point that Schmidt and Hand made in their translation of Valens, at least about travel being conceptualized as negative in certain parts of the Anthology.

As a result of this I never really thought that Mars had any inherent association with travel, but that it was more functional or situational as a side effect of being a malefic. But then again, until earlier in this thread when Mark pointed it out I didn't fully see how much the Moon was inherently being associated with travel by Valens either, so I could be wrong about Mars as well.