Skyscript Astrology Forum

Greg Young wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2024 11:56 am There is a method of using the Solar Return as a timing mechanism with the ASC 1st house starting at the Return date..say April 3rd for example and then going to 2H) May 3......3H) June 3 etc etc.

An astrologer called Val Evans uses it ostensibly to solve unsolved crimes..she has a book called ''Forensic Astrology''.

Thanks Greg, I've never heard of "Forensic Astrology" before.

Martin Gansten wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2024 12:20 pm That is very similar to the so-called lesser condition or minora esse taught by ʿUmar aṭ-Ṭabarī in the 8th century, basically profecting the ascendant of the revolution at a rate of 360° over a solar year. (Abū Maʿshar mentions it as well; Ben Dykes translates the Arabic term he used for the technique as 'the small days', contrasting with 'the great days' of the ordinary annual profections.) Of course, the ascendant of the revolution will be completely different depending on whether you use tropical or sidereal parameters: the two charts would be cast not only in different zodiacs, but for different times. The Persian ʿUmar presumably used sidereal tables.

Hi Martin, yes, I got the maiora esse and minora esse from Robert Hand's translation of Omar of Tiberias; he called them 'two states of being' and said they were to be "known from the sign of the profection" saying "you will always direct from the degree of the Ascendant to the rays of malefics and fortunes up until the completion of 360 degrees...at [the rate of] 59 minutes and 8 seconds from the second day be equal degrees" (p47). For the maiora esse he says "And you will direct from the sign of the profection" at the rate of 12 1/7 (365.25 / 30) days per degree.

In the intro Hand says "Then we have the annual profection, which is used to find the 'maiora esse'....This is contrasted to a second term, the 'minora esse', which is related to the direction of the above points at the rate of 59'08" per day....Certainly some of the directions involving 59'08" per day are in fact directions within the solar return" (p vii) so perhaps they are used in both chart types.

janegca wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2024 7:11 pm In the intro Hand says "Then we have the annual profection, which is used to find the 'maiora esse'....This is contrasted to a second term, the 'minora esse', which is related to the direction of the above points at the rate of 59'08" per day....Certainly some of the directions involving 59'08" per day are in fact directions within the solar return" (p vii) so perhaps they are used in both chart types.

The account of the technique in ʿUmar's text as we have it is a bit muddled (Ben Dykes rearranged the order of the Latin text in places when he translated it in Persian Nativities II; the lesser condition/minora esse is discussed on p. 33). It would perhaps seem a little strange to have a technique that profected the natal ascendant around the entire chart in exactly one year, as that would lead to the exact same 'hits' on the same dates every year; but it is by comparing ʿUmar with other authors such as Abū Maʿshar and Kūshyār ibn Labbān that we can be sure that it was the ascendant of the revolution that was used.

Abū Maʿshar's account is found on p. 636 of Dykes's Persian Nativities IV, although his assumption that Abū Maʿshar meant for this to be a form of primary direction (using ascensional degrees) seems unfounded: while the profection by 0°59'08" per day is called an approximation, the text makes it clear that this refers to using the mean, rather than the true, daily motion of the Sun. Kūshyār's 11th-century work, translated by Michio Yano in 1997, is less well-known among astrologers. He refers to various forms of profection, which he calls tasyīr ('sending out'), including this, on p. 221:

Among them the tasyīr of the degree of the ascendant of the revolution, its house,* and its planets move fifty-nine minutes and eight seconds every day.

*(I expect this should properly read 'houses' in the plural, that is, cusps.)

*(I expect this should properly read 'houses' in the plural, that is, cusps.)

Yes. it does read "its houses" in Arabic (بيوتها).

Thanks for confirming that, astrojin.

Hi Martin,

Martin Gansten wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2024 9:49 pm The account of the technique in ʿUmar's text as we have it is a bit muddled (Ben Dykes rearranged the order of the Latin text in places when he translated it in Persian Nativities II; the lesser condition/minora esse is discussed on p. 33). It would perhaps seem a little strange to have a technique that profected the natal ascendant around the entire chart in exactly one year, as that would lead to the exact same 'hits' on the same dates every year; but it is by comparing ʿUmar with other authors such as Abū Maʿshar and Kūshyār ibn Labbān that we can be sure that it was the ascendant of the revolution that was used.

The minora esse is directed from the profected Ascendant, which will be the same every 12 years; just as the maiora esse directions. Initially my thought was the same, this is strange, why bother but then it dawned on me with each profection year the radix planets are in their original sign positions but they are in and ruling different houses so their 30° and 360° directions will give indications for those new places as well as interact with the new positions found using 1° RA/OA directions, bound directions, Firdaria, Solar Returns, and any other direction method we care to check; making the profections themselves come alive.

Martin Gansten wrote: Abū Maʿshar's account is found on p. 636 of Dykes's Persian Nativities IV, although his assumption that Abū Maʿshar meant for this to be a form of primary direction (using ascensional degrees) seems unfounded: while the profection by 0°59'08" per day is called an approximation, the text makes it clear that this refers to using the mean, rather than the true, daily motion of the Sun. Kūshyār's 11th-century work, translated by Michio Yano in 1997, is less well-known among astrologers. He refers to various forms of profection, which he calls tasyīr ('sending out'), including this, on p. 221:

Among them the tasyīr of the degree of the ascendant of the revolution, its house,* and its planets move fifty-nine minutes and eight seconds every day.

*(I expect this should properly read 'houses' in the plural, that is, cusps.)

Agree it does appear to be the mean of the Sun's motion in longitude rather than real motion. Is there an English version of Michio Yano's book, I can find references to it in catalogues and papers but not the book itself.

Thanks

janegca wrote: Fri Apr 05, 2024 7:04 pm The minora esse is directed from the profected Ascendant, which will be the same every 12 years; just as the maiora esse directions.

Have you seen any text that says so? I haven't, and as I said, Abū Maʿshar and Kūshyār are both clear that they are using the ascendant of the revolution.

Ptolemy's monthly profections do start from the place of the annual profection in the way you suggest (p. 453 of Robbins's translation):

We shall do the same thing for the months, setting out, again, the number of months from the month of birth, starting from the places that govern the year, twenty-eight days to a sign

28 days, presumably, because that is the approximate value of 365.25/(12+1). But this is not the same as the minora esse. Kūshyār actually includes both methods, applying them in a continuous manner with slightly different rates: 0°59'08" per day (360°/365.25) for the profected revolution (minora esse), 1°04'04" per day (390°/365.25) for the Ptolemaic monthly profection of the nativity.

Is there an English version of Michio Yano's book, I can find references to it in catalogues and papers but not the book itself.

The book is an edition of the Arabic text with parallel English translation, introduction, and notes (plus an edition of a Chinese version of the text). If you can't find it, feel free to contact me privately.

Martin Gansten wrote: Fri Apr 05, 2024 8:07 pm

janegca wrote: Fri Apr 05, 2024 7:04 pm The minora esse is directed from the profected Ascendant, which will be the same every 12 years; just as the maiora esse directions.

Have you seen any text that says so? I haven't, and as I said, Abū Maʿshar and Kūshyār are both clear that they are using the ascendant of the revolution.

Yes, in Robert Hand's translation of Umar:

"For also there are two directions from the revolution of the year: the one, to wit, in order to know the minora esse day-by-day up to the completion of the year; and the other [in order to know] the maiora esse; and perhaps there is one such state of being or two or more. And this is known from the sign of the profection, and I shall myself expound to you these modes, if God wills.

In the direction of the Ascendant, in order to understand the [native's] state of being, you will always direct from the degree of the Ascendant to the rays of malefics and fortunes up until the completion of 360 degrees, until it returns again to the degree of the Ascendant, at [the rate of] 59 minutes and 8 seconds from the second day by equal degrees..." Bk. II Sec. 15 p47 (emphasis added)

Dykes has moved the above paragraphs and translated them differently:

"For there are two directions from the revolution of the year: namely, one for knowing the lesser condition, every day up to the completion of the year, and the other for [knowing] the greater condition, and [whether] it were perhaps one condition or two or more: and this [greater condition] is known from the sign of the profection. And I will explain these ways to you, if God wills.

In the direction of the Ascendant for knowing the [native's lesser] condition, you will always direct from the degree of the Ascendant [of the revolution]..." Bk 11.2 p29-30 (emphasis added)

I'm not sure why Dykes treats "the revolution of the year" as two separate revolutions: profected and 'return'.

Martin Gansten wrote:

Jane wrote:Is there an English version of Michio Yano's book, I can find references to it in catalogues and papers but not the book itself.

The book is an edition of the Arabic text with parallel English translation, introduction, and notes (plus an edition of a Chinese version of the text). If you can't find it, feel free to contact me privately.

Thanks, I will dig around a bit more for it.

Jane and Martin,
Interesting discussion.
In practice, which method gives the most accurate result from your own experience?
Can we convert this to let's say 3m56.6s of sidereal time for the motion of the ASC? Or any other value from the Sun's motion we choose?

Thank you,
Ouranos

Ouranos wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2024 1:07 am In practice, which method gives the most accurate result from your own experience?
Can we convert this to let's say 3m56.6s of sidereal time for the motion of the ASC? Or any other value from the Sun's motion we choose?

No, these motions (as discussed by the medieval authors) are purely symbolic, in 'equal degrees' (ecliptical longitude), so they are nothing to do with the primary motion. As for personal experience, I have only experimented with the profection of the ascendant of the (sidereal) revolution, which seems to have been used across the board. I have seen some quite interesting results, but one has to bear in mind that the technique belongs rather far down the predictive hierarchy. If the directions, annual profection, major transits, etc., indicate something, the minora esse won't change that.

janegca wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2024 12:00 am Yes, in Robert Hand's translation of Umar:

"For also there are two directions from the revolution of the year: the one, to wit, in order to know the minora esse day-by-day up to the completion of the year; and the other [in order to know] the maiora esse; and perhaps there is one such state of being or two or more. And this is known from the sign of the profection, and I shall myself expound to you these modes, if God wills.

In the direction of the Ascendant, in order to understand the [native's] state of being, you will always direct from the degree of the Ascendant to the rays of malefics and fortunes up until the completion of 360 degrees, until it returns again to the degree of the Ascendant, at [the rate of] 59 minutes and 8 seconds from the second day by equal degrees..." Bk. II Sec. 15 p47 (emphasis added)

The translation is fine, but neither the Latin text nor the English translation says to start counting the minora esse from the sign of the annual profection. The text says that there are two forms of 'direction' (meaning what we would call profection): one for knowing the native's minor or day-to-day state of being, and the other for knowing the major state of being, in which there may just be a few changes over the course of a year (as the profected ascendant meets with a few planets/aspects). It is this major state of being (maiora esse) that is said to be known from the sign of the (annual) profection.

If you look a little earlier in the text (still using Hand's translation [p. 34 f.] here for convenience, and so that we are on the same page, literally and figuratively, although I'm looking at the Latin as well), you will find the same ideas more clearly stated:

And in the revolution of a year direct the degree of the Ascendant by equal degrees to the rays of fortunes and malefics, and to the lords of the places in order to know the native's status; and you will reckon 59 minutes and eight seconds for each whole day, if God wills.

And you will direct from the sign of the profection in order to understand the maiora esse of the native. And understand that the sign of the profection should always be like the degree of the Ascendant because every 30 degrees are a year.

(The last comment means that just as one degree of primary direction is one year, so 30 degrees of profection are one year.)

Martin Gansten wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2024 9:54 am If you look a little earlier in the text (still using Hand's translation [p. 34 f.] here for convenience, and so that we are on the same page, literally and figuratively, although I'm looking at the Latin as well), you will find the same ideas more clearly stated:

And in the revolution of a year direct the degree of the Ascendant by equal degrees to the rays of fortunes and malefics, and to the lords of the places in order to know the native's status; and you will reckon 59 minutes and eight seconds for each whole day, if God wills.

And you will direct from the sign of the profection in order to understand the maiora esse of the native. And understand that the sign of the profection should always be like the degree of the Ascendant because every 30 degrees are a year.

(The last comment means that just as one degree of primary direction is one year, so 30 degrees of profection are one year.)

Hi Martin, yes, the text used the 59'08" direction for the Solar Return and Hand has a footnote on p38 that says "We know from later references that the 'minora esse' is derived from directing the solar return positions at 59' 08" per day"; however, I took it that the "two directions" referred to the directions using the same chart, that being the "profection" as the last line of the paragraph specifically referenced the sign of the profection; so in my mind using the measure in the solar return does not preclude its use in the profection as well.

Unfortunately I don't read Greek, Persian, Arabic, Hebrew or Latin so have to really on what I find in translation; had I read Dykes book first it would probably never have occurred to me to direct the profection using the minora esse but having done so, I have found it useful. Often the planets, house cusps, or lots on the day of an event appear to support directions active by 1° OA or maiora esse either by being in critical degrees or in a partile relationship to one or more of them.