Well, Plinius was a very influential source for comets if Hevelius in his book about comets in 1668 could use almost the same classification.

I see. Well its clear the subject of comets is endlessly fascinating.
I have heard of this astrologer and many other key texts from an excellent book on comets entitled ''Comets, Popular Culture, and the Birth of Modern Cosmology By Sara J. Schechner.
Its a good history of the attitudes to comets from the classical to early modern era. You may not find the astrological insights that impressive but it is very good overall and thoroughly researched. One really impressive thing about the book is its extensive illustrations with wood block images of Comets from the renaissance and medieval era. Its worth having just for that.

I tried giving the link to the book on Google Books but it was massively expanding the layout of the thread page so I suggest people just cut and paste the book title here and search in Google Books.

And I'm inquiring about the comet colour. In every case I don't think it's a discrepancy..... I hate to say this, but green could be even fresh buds, not just deep green. anyway i'm waiting my friend reply, she has a degree in Ancient Literature and she is a traditional astrologer. Something she could surely say. She found even impossible words....
I will update you.

I have a totally open mind on this subject. I do not read Greek so I am completely in the hands of the Demi-Gods that do. Thanks for getting this issue checked out. I appreciate it.

But even if Brahe destroyed Aristotelian cosmos, in the same pages he could use Ptolemy sizigy for his forecasts. It's strange, if you think a little.

Its just a pity Tycho Brahe rejected the ideas of Copernicus. Still he did have his own reasons for his unique system that was neither purely Ptolemaic or Copernican. If Tycho Brahe had been a supporter of Copernicus he would have been the role model for later astrologers. As it was he remains an underestimated genius.

Mark

Probably best to check with your friend. When I was in America, I heard 'cerulean blue' for sky colour, and 'sallow' for pale, or pale yellow, a kind of skin colour.

Not the same as the original Greek, I am certain!

And what about the eclipse of the 26th January? It was visible from Australia and it's quite near the Ascendant.
So according Ptolemy it will give its effects in the first 4 months.

Which ascendant? What chart are you using for Australia? Surely you mean the Sun?

The settlement chart for Australia has the sun at around 5.36 Aquarius. Nicholas Campion times this for 26/01/1788 at an estimated time of 5.25am.

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/countries/australia.php

Using this chart the eclipse was almost exactly on the position of the Sun from the 1788 chart. Mars had just ingressed Aquarius on the 5th of February and transited the Australian Sun on the 10th of February. Comet Lulin appeared at 15 Scorpio squaring the Australian Pluto at 15 Aquarius and later squaring the Austrailan Saturn at 28 Aquarius.

In terms of modern Australia the Declaration of the Federation ( January 1, 1901, 1:35 pm AEST, Melbourne) is a popular choice. In this chart Mars had just ingressed Aquarius ( 10th house whole sign)at the time the bush fires started. As the traditional ruler of Scorpio Mars is the 8th house ruler of the Australian Federation Declaration chart (whole sign + quadrant) Comet Lulin was transiting the 8th house ( whole sign) of this chart and rapidly moving to oppose the Australian chart Moon at 20 Taurus.

http://members.tripod.com/tra_nations/a_australia.htm

Note: The Astrologyweekly version of the 1901 Declaration chart is incorrect as it has located the chart in Sydney while in actual fact the Declaration of the Australian federation took place in Melbourne. A pity really as this chart had Mars closeto the Australian MC at the time of the Bush fires. However, its interesting if you relocate the angles of the 1901 chart to Canberra ( the modern Federal capital) you get Mars in partile conjunction with the MC on the exact day the Bush fires broke out.

Hello Olivia and Mark and Steven,

MarkC wrote:I see. Well its clear the subject of comets is endlessly fascinating.

Well at this point I'm thinking to write an article for our Italian journal or maybe a lecture if someone ask me:)

MarkC wrote: I have a totally open mind on this subject. I do not read Greek so I am completely in the hands of the Demi-Gods that do. Thanks for getting this issue checked out. I appreciate it.

I had her reply. And she found for me words out of every dictionary.

She writes me that "clwroteroj is the comparative for clwroj which means green/yellow and so greenish. The absolute comparative is done with "rather..." so the sentence becomes rather greenish. I believe it's not a strong green but a green shading in whitish/yellow. "


Sallow is the proper word for this description? I'm not English mother tongue.

In every case I believe that Schidmt knew Plinius, and in fact he adds notes with comets names, so it's easy that he tried to adapt Hephaestio to Latin/Greek literature about comets.

About Anton for what I know about him if he knew older texts he would mention or try to follow the thread, but he had no problems in his traslation.....Anton has never doubts, this is the point.

Olivia wrote: When I was in America, I heard 'cerulean blue' for sky colour, and 'sallow' for pale, or pale yellow, a kind of skin colour.

Well, in fact I thought a little more about it and I'm not sure that cerulean is a light colour. It derives from caelum, sky, so I tend to think about a light colour.
But reading here and there in Internet I found that the word ceruleus in Middle Ages was used for deep blue or deep green comets - like Lulin in fact

I'm not a Medievalist or a Latinist so surely I will be wrong, but I tend to think that every author - since Petosiris used this list trying to adjust as he better could think.

It's like we do, we use standard traditional tecniques but making the adaptations we believe necessary.

MarkC wrote:Which ascendant? What chart are you using for Australia? Surely you mean the Sun?

I never use Declaration charts.

I meant "Ascendant." I was talking about the eclipse of the 26th January. If I'm not wrong in casting the chart the eclipse falls near the Ascendant - so according Ptolemy it will give its effects in 4 months. Moreover it was visible from Australia so effective.

Anyway I'd like to try a little with Cieloeterra astrocartography. I know that very soon they will translate in English an article about earthquakes, eclipses and astrocartography written by Marco Fumagalli,
I will keep you updated,


Margherita

I never use Declaration charts.

Each to their own. There is always an issue about whether the legal or ceremonial/public time should take precedence. Its identical to the discussion we had about the US Presidential Innauguration.

I meant "Ascendant." I was talking about the eclipse of the 26th January. If I'm not wrong in casting the chart the eclipse falls near the Ascendant - so according Ptolemy it will give its effects in 4 months. Moreover it was visible from Australia so effective.

Oh you mean a chart located to Australia for the eclipse? I see now. Is that a traditional approach too? What about the nearest Ingress chart?

I would tend to think that perhaps Schmidt has translated the Greek correctly using the word "sallow". Our modern English definition of it referring to the unhealthy skin colour of an ashen pale yellow comes from its original useage to the common European willow. The Latin origin is salix.

The common willow has clusters of pollen called catkin which always appear before the leaves do. When studied they are a very translucent pale green tinged with yellow. Anyone who has studied art or even graphic design can tell you that yellow is a secondary colour which is the result of the combination of the two primary colours red and green. Therefore, depending on the intensity of green, yellow will have a "greenish" hue, especially when in the lower intensity ranges. I imagine when describing the comet's colour it may have reminded the early greeks of the colour and shape of the catkin found in the common European variety of willow! Thus to describe it as "sallow" would be quite correct in the context of the ancient meaning of "sallow". Knowing Schmidt's knowledge of etymology I rather think that is why he used the word. Whether that was the wisest choice for most readers is debateable!

Hello Steven,

Thanks very much for that. Clearly the translators life is not an easy one...


Hi Margherita,

She writes me that "clwroteroj is the comparative for clwroj which means green/yellow and so greenish. The absolute comparative is done with "rather..." so the sentence becomes rather greenish. I believe it's not a strong green but a green shading in whitish/yellow. "

So from this does this mean the medieval use of the word ceruleus is really a poor rendering? Was the original Greek ever meant to include the possibility of blue comets?

Another point is that away from astrological theory the colour of comets for naked eye observers is often more ambiguous. For example what colour do you see comet McNaught as in these photos?

http://msowww.anu.edu.au/~rmn/C2006P1new.htm

It looks quite golden/orange to me. Looking at Margherita's blog description of the text by Pseudo-Ptolemy I am assuming this comes under the type of comet described as follows:

The one called Rosa, it?s large and round, it has an human face and its color is similar to silver mixed with gold. When it appears it signifies death for kings and rich men, and condition of the world change for the better.

Going to Hephaistio of Thebes we have this similar possibility:

There is another comet, rose-like and great and circular, and it is called midwife, having the face of a maiden, having its rays golden in the circle of the head, sweet in aspect, similar in colour to the mixture of silver and gold, and it signifies the cutting down of men and the change of matters for the better and a quittance for those who have lain down together.

There again Comet McNaught was noted for being extremely bright but difficult to observe due to its proximity to the Sun. Going back to Pseudo-Ptolemy we have this option:

The one called Veru looks dreadful: it?s always near the Sun and brings the alteration of fruit trees and products of the land and death for kings and rich men.

MarkC wrote: So from this does this mean the medieval use of the word ceruleus is really a poor rendering? Was the original Greek ever meant to include the possibility of blue comets?

My friend is very impressive, true? I was sure she could tell a clear word about it.

I don't believe that Ephaestio was the source for comets, he was just repeating a well known text. He writes around 400 AD, true?
He is like Cardano or Lilly, they work with what they received from tradition.

Then about ceruleus I don't know. Here we need some latinist or medievalist.
Surely the sword comets are pale in their origin, we saw in Plinius. Then they became like a latex in Ephestio.
My friend used the same word Steven used, but I could not find a better translation so I translated whitish.
Surely Schidmt understands the same thing my friend understood.

How this became deep blue or green I have no idea, but it is like that already in Pseudo Ptolemy, Grosseteste or Bonatti, this we know.

Clearly the translators life is not an easy one..

Yes, this is my theory. This is the exact reason why I tend to discard who has not an academical background.
I had quarrels on quarrels about this point.
You can trust in whoever but I have some experience in what is a classical education and what it is not.

See for example, Anton translates "green" and stop, and my friend Lucia who has a proper education (and degree) what you read above.

I meant "Ascendant." I was talking about the eclipse of the 26th January. If I'm not wrong in casting the chart the eclipse falls near the Ascendant - so according Ptolemy it will give its effects in 4 months. Moreover it was visible from Australia so effective.

Oh you mean a chart located to Australia for the eclipse? I see now. Is that a traditional approach too? What about the nearest Ingress chart?

It's because in CieloeTerra they follow Ptolemy the Great and his prophet Placido while in AngloSaxon world you prefer Albumasar.

Anyway for me they are both shining names, I have no preferences.

In every case as usually according Ptolemy if every fact on the Earth depends on Sun and the Moon, obviously the eclipse is a moment of crisis.

Then Ptolemy - but I'm sure you will find in Lilly too - gives some indications. firstly the eclipse should be visible. And Australia was one of the countries where this last eclipse was visible.

Second, time of effects. Ptolemy is clear (let's say more or less) about this. It depends on the distance of the eclipse from the angles.

I wrote a little example in my blog for Bolshevik Revolution some months ago in my blog, following Cardano comment to Ptolemy chapter:

http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com/20 ... e-soviets/

In every case Marco Fumagalli wrote a wonderful article about eclipses, surely better than mine, as soon as it is translated I will tell you.

Now I'm out (at work in theory) so I cannot check with Solar Fire the Australian eclipse.
Yesterday I gave a quick look and it seemed to at the Ascendant, but sometimes Solar Fire it's a little tricky, so I should wait to come back at home to check.

margherita

Gjiada wrote:
Now I'm out (at work in theory) so I cannot check with Solar Fire the Australian eclipse.
Yesterday I gave a quick look and it seemed to at the Ascendant, but sometimes Solar Fire it's a little tricky, so I should wait to come back at home to check.

No, it switched the city, I had this doubt this morning in fact. The eclipse is near the descendant, in the 7th house.
In this case it does not fit with fires

Margherita

Hello Margherita,

My friend is very impressive, true? I was sure she could tell a clear word about it.

Awesome. I bow down in complete admiration to classics scholars on such matters. There is no doubt what we really need in traditional astrology is more people with good understanding of Latin and Greek. You may not regard yourself as a classicist on Latin but remember in the land of the blind the one eyed woman is Queen....

I don't believe that Ephaestio was the source for comets, he was just repeating a well known text. He writes around 400 AD, true?
He is like Cardano or Lilly, they work with what they received from tradition.

Not so sure about that. Yes Hepahiaisto's Apotelesmatics is dated about 380 AD. Contemporary to Firmicus so I accept a later hellenistic source. However I need more time to properly study the sources to reach a firm view. I posted some more comments above while you were posting. Surely you see the similarity between Hephaistio and Pseudo-Ptolemy in the quotes given for Comet McNaught? When do you date Pseudo-Ptolemy on Comets from?

It's because in CieloeTerra they follow Ptolemy the Great and his prophet Placido while in AngloSaxon world you prefer Albumasar.

Its probably more to do with my ignorance of traditional authorities on this issue generally. I am not sure if the English speaking world favours Arabic sources like Abu' Mashar over Ptolemy as you suggest. Gosh the idea of Placidus as an astrological 'prophet' is quite scarey! By the way please dont lump us all together as Anglo-Saxons.

In every case as usually according Ptolemy if every fact on the Earth depends on Sun and the Moon, obviously the eclipse is a moment of crisis. Then Ptolemy - but I'm sure you will find in Lilly too - gives some indications. firstly the eclipse should be visible. And Australia was one of the countries where this last eclipse was visible. Second, time of effects. Ptolemy is clear (let's say more or less) about this. It depends on the distance of the eclipse from the angles.
I wrote a little example in my blog for Bolshevik Revolution some months ago in my blog, following Cardano comment to Ptolemy chapter:

http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com/20 ... e-soviets/

Ok I need to look at Eclipse charts then. I have tended up to now to incorporate an eclipse with a national chart or an Ingress chart. I haven't given much consideration to a specfic chart for an eclipse itself. Thanks for the suggestion. What Ptolemy says about only visible eclipses having an effect makes sense to me. Still, this is an empirical issue not just a philosophical one. I need to test this theory of Ptolemy out more. I found it interesting what Yuzuru said, on another thread, about finding eclipses having an effect in mundane charts where the eclipse cannot be seen.

I found it interesting what Yuzuru said on another thread about finding eclipses having an effect even in mundane charts are in places wherte the eclipse cannot be seen.

Well at least is my experience

By instance, erect the eclipse chart of january for stutgard

then see in which degree was mars in the day of the shootings.

It is not good for prediction but it works almost every time

And the eclipse was not visible in germany

Best regards
Y

MarkC wrote:You may not regard yourself as a classicist on Latin but remember in the land of the blind the one eyed woman is Queen....

Well to be honest I have a degree in Economics
In every case it's just I'm accustomed to the fact that in Italy all the Latin, MiddleAges and Renaissance astrological texts have been translated inside Academic world, so I know when the translation is good or not.
And I know people too...

Surely you see the similarity between Hephaistio and Pseudo-Ptolemy in the quotes given for Comet McNaught? When do you date Pseudo-Ptolemy on Comets from?

Yes but what about Johannes Lidus for example?
I have the wicked idea that Ephaestio was quoted just because it was in note in Arcana Mundi....
Moreover Bezza translates Ephastio in the note like "giallastro", yellowish.
I did not remember this yesterday, but now I opened the book to check the date and I saw the notes.

In every case Pseudo Ptolemaus is later, I believe that version comes from Grosseteste, so around 1000.

I am not sure if the English speaking world favours Arabic sources like Abu' Mashar over Ptolemy as you suggest.

Well, I'm comparing with Cieloeterra.

I need to test this theory of Ptolemy out more. I found it interesting what Yuzuru said, on another thread, about finding eclipses having an effect in mundane charts where the eclipse cannot be seen.

I was sure that Yuzuru would reply to this

Anyway I see that many of you - all skilled astrologers - compare the eclipse chart with some other chart, so surely it works.
I'm not so blind adept to Ptolemy or his prophet

Margherita

Moreover Bezza translates Ephastio in the note like "giallastro", yellowish. I did not remember this yesterday, but now I opened the book to check the date and I saw the notes.

Useful to know. thanks

Yes but what about Johannes Lidus for example?
I have the wicked idea that Ephaestio was quoted just because it was in note in Arcana Mundi....

I have no idea

This is the early 6th century Byzantine writer known as Joannes Laurentius Lydus? Sorry I do not understand your reference here. Did he write on comets? What is the Arcana Mundi?