The point is impossible to do natal astrology without Ptolemy.

Vettius Valens coped pretty well with nativities without apparently knowing Ptolemy even existed. However, I accept your basic point that in terms of the later development of astrological history Ptolemy's influence is pivotal and quite undeniable. Alternative histories are fun. What if The Spanish Armada had succeeded or the south won the civil war? The timeline where Ptolemy's texts are lost before transmission to the Arabs is a good intellectual parlour game. However, its ultimately irrelevant to the actual tradition of astrology that did unfold. Without the immense influence of Ptolemy as an astronomer with his work The Almagest I doubt astrology itself would have been half as interesting to the the medieval world. Because Ptolemy (aka 'the divine Ptolemy') also wrote on astrology lended an intellectual respectability to the subject it would otherwise have lacked.

Mark

Hi Margherita/Tom

So basically you're saying 'we don't care what new, or newly interpreted, material comes along, we have a tradtion, let's stick to that?'
Don't rock the boat?

Hello Margherita:

That's the legend spread in the English speaking astrological traditional world.


Almost everything which can be used come from Tetrabiblos, the directions, the system of directions/profections/solar returns .....

I fully agree with you that Ptolemy was great! And this aims to convey my respects to him.

I began my traditional studies by the Medieval authors. When I met Schmidt in Cumberlant I got so amazed with the Hellenistic astrological world that I can say it was like an ?initiation" in my life.

I began then to study Valens diligently. Ptolemy with his apparently "easy books" represented then a fancier astrologer,an enthusiast astrologer and nothing more.
I had doubts if he worked with astrology or was a merely theorist, because of the lack of charts in his Tetrabiblos.

I cannot swear before the court if he worked with astrology. But he knew enough to had been an excellent astrologer as he was an excellent scientific mind.
Now I?m aware of his encyclopedic knowledge, and the more I learn the more I can see in his teachings certain unique hints .

For example his idea that the releaser or apheta do not needs an alchocoden is brilliant and is like breathing fresh air, being able to liberate our mind from the strict methodological chains which are proper to the Arabic-Medieval thinking .

Cl?lia

Hi Margherita/Tom

So basically you're saying 'we don't care what new, or newly interpreted, material comes along, we have a tradtion, let's stick to that?'
Don't rock the boat?

Not real clear on where you get that from what I said, but if you're looking for an argument at this level you're wasting your time with me.

I recently started learning astrology and somehow I am lucky to get attracted to traditional astrology. And I must say that learning from this forum is mind blowing. People from various background pool in their knowledge and help providing good insights and proper directions.
When you read any traditional astrology book, you have lot of questions and I must say this forum does try to answer all those questions.

Following is my surmise related to house rulers and occupants:

In horary astrology, the ruler of the houses are given importance in deciding outcomes of any matter. I think this does tell that the ruler of the house has the final say in any matter.

The planets are responsible for the houses they rule but they have to operate in the house they are in. So if a planet can look at (aspect) the house it rules, it is good for the house. Maybe the house ruler is kind of a godfather to that house.

Referring to Clelia's example - Venus, Sun & Mercury in Aries in 7th house, Mars in the 10th in Cancer; Mars is responsible for 7th house activities (partnerships, etc), but it has to work with Venus, Sun and Mercury (who are the occupants) and Mars operates in the 10th house.
So Mars works in the 10th house but it is always trying to give form to partnerships (7th house) and it has to 'take help' or 'deal with' Venus, Sun and Mercury. Mars has got lots of power (in the 10th house) but it is not happy (in its fall). That will say how Mars goes about its job. Mars is the one which links 10th house activities with 7th house activities. [Also Mars will try to promote 2nd house affairs (2nd house Scorpio) with its activities]. To see final outcome of the 10th house we need to see the state of Moon.
Similarly Venus, Sun and Mercury working in 7th house with Arian energy try to promote the affairs of the house they rule.

Hello Vasanth:

I think about this forum in the same way you do: it is an excellent place to discuss seriious astrology!

Following is my surmise related to house rulers and occupants:

In horary astrology, the ruler of the houses are given importance in deciding outcomes of any matter. I think this does tell that the ruler of the house has the final say in any matter

I have to say that, as far as I see the same is true in natal astrology; I have seem natives with a good planet in a good celestial state in a cardinal house, but if the ruler is cadent or in detriment, the matters of the house have equally a poor performance. Although, a planet in a house is always a red flag claiming our attention and connecting the house where he is in to the places and signs ruled by the planet. And he share the power with the ruler of the house where he is in.
I was taught that position was stronger than rulership, but I have seen that the final result of the house is given more by the ruler than by the planet in the house.

The planets are responsible for the houses they rule but they have to operate in the house they are in. So if a planet can look at (aspect) the house it rules, it is good for the house. Maybe the house ruler is kind of a godfather to that house.

Referring to Clelia's example - Venus, Sun & Mercury in Aries in 7th house, Mars in the 10th in Cancer; Mars is responsible for 7th house activities (partnerships, etc), but it has to work with Venus, Sun and Mercury (who are the occupants) and Mars operates in the 10th house.

In my way of see Mars. as the master of the house, use the material of Venus, Sun and Mercury for his purposes, i.e. 10th house?s purposes, but in the other way around he is disposed by the Moon and Jupiter, which use Mars for their purposes. So it is a merry-go-round

So Mars works in the 10th house but it is always trying to give form to partnerships (7th house) and it has to 'take help' or 'deal with' Venus, Sun and Mercury. Mars has got lots of power (in the 10th house) but it is not happy (in its fall). That will say how Mars goes about its job. Mars is the one which links 10th house activities with 7th house activities. [Also Mars will try to promote 2nd house affairs (2nd house Scorpio) with its activities]. To see final outcome of the 10th house we need to see the state of Moon.
Similarly Venus, Sun and Mercury working in 7th house with Arian energy try to promote the affairs of the house they rule

I fully agree!

Thanks for the comments!

Clelia

Hello Clelia,

In my way of see Mars. as the master of the house, use the material of Venus, Sun and Mercury for his purposes, i.e. 10th house?s purposes, but in the other way around he is disposed by the Moon and Jupiter, which use Mars for their purposes. So it is a merry-go-round

I am reading Morin's 'Astrologia Gallica Book 21' these days. In Section II Chapter V (How a planet ruling one house but located in another combines the meanings of each house), Morin states that "A planet ruling one house and placed in another acts not only through the house it occupies as well as the one which it rules over, but also through any planets located in this latter house"

He then goes on to give various examples to illustrate this point:
1. Ruler of Mercury in the first house shows good mental qualities, even though Mercury is not itself in the first house. Ruler of Sun in the tenth - honors & prestige.
2. If Venus is in the third house and its ruler Jupiter is in the first and, moreover, Jupiter is ruler of the twelfth, Venus will act on the native through the affairs of the first house, but not the twelfth

In delineating the first house, Morin gives an example - For example, if the ruler of the first is in the tenth, or the ruler of the tenth in the first, professional activities, honors and prestige are indicated for the native in both cases; with the difference, however, that in the first case the native is stimulated by his own will and ambition and works with industry to attain recognition or an important position, while in the second case he does not strive thus, but honor and preferment often come to him quite without expectation.

This indicates that if the ruler of the first is in the 10th, the resources/materials of the 1st house (i.e. himself, his will/ambition) is used for his professions/honors.
If the ruler of the 10th is in the first, the resources of the 10th house (honors/position, etc) is used for himself (which is the reason Morin mentions that the native does not strive much in this case).

Morin gives additional examples:
1. Ruler of the 10th in the 12th - the reputation and professional activities of the native?will be the cause of illness, prison, enemies, or exile, etc.
2. Ruler of the 12th in the 10th - enemies, prisons, exiles, etc. will be the cause of honor, recognition and professional activities, especially if the ruler itself is a benefic and in good celestial state.
3. And similarly, the ruler of the eleventh in the twelfth changes friends into enemies, which happened frequently to me; and the ruler of the twelfth in the eleventh causes the contrary.

This indicates the ruler of a sign uses the resources/material from the sign for the purpose/affairs of the house where it is placed.

So in summary, Morin does agree with you

Vasanth

Hello Vasanth!

Morin is really consistent in his rationale!

Morin states that "A planet ruling one house and placed in another acts not only through the house it occupies as well as the one which it rules over, but also through any planets located in this latter house"

Only to add a commentary:
"any planets located in this latter house" have other deals besides being disposed by the house?s ruler, since they are occupied using the material of the house they rule by themselves.
I agree that the dispositor has power over the planets in the house it rules and full point.

If we follow Morin by the book we will have to imagine that the houses ruled by these planets also would be linked to the qualities of the first planet.

For example, let?s suppose that Mercury, Sun and Venus are in Aries in the 7th. So Mars rules them. As Venus rules the 8th( Taurus) and Mercury the 9th ( Gemini), Mars would be able to use the matter not only of the 7th, but also of the 8th and 9th.
More, if Jupiter is in the place or sign of Venus, Jupiter also depends on Mars.

We will get to the point of having a planet rulling all the accidents of the chart.

When we construct an Almutem Figuris, according to the Medieval technique, we also obtain a planet with power over all the chart, but it acts like a back scenery, a mood, or, if you wish, a kind of " angel" of the chart and it is not directly related with specific issues.

Just some considerations?and thanks for the handy summary!

Cl?lia

Hi Vasanth,

Excellent summary of Morin's thoughts on that subject. Welcome to the Traditional Forum.

Thanks Tom !!!

Hello Clelia,

Only to add a commentary:
"any planets located in this latter house" have other deals besides being disposed by the house?s ruler, since they are occupied using the material of the house they rule by themselves.

Now I understand clearly what you mean by "merry-go-round". This does make the chart very complex & dynamic.

I am not sure how important is derived houses in natal analysis. I came across one instance in Morin's book 21 as of now - "However, the tenth house is the eighth from the third, and therefore, if the ruler of the third is in the tenth it indicates the death of the brothers?which can be frequently observed?and indicates honor and advantage to the native through his brothers; whence it can be concluded that the native, upon his brother's death, will succeed to his position and estate or will acquire these through inheritance; and so on."

And so if we add-in the derived houses; and include the exaltation & triplicity rulers; consider the different houses ruled by the same planet; and the different meanings of each house; then there is a quite a number of possibilities to consider while interpreting house rulers.

I think the nature & celestial state (dignity, sect, angularity, etc) of the planets will help to narrow down the possibilities. But it sure feels complex to me as of now. However, I do feel that some of your posts and those of Astrojin in this thread; does help to answer this.

Vasanth

Vasanth wrote:Hello Clelia,

Only to add a commentary:
"any planets located in this latter house" have other deals besides being disposed by the house?s ruler, since they are occupied using the material of the house they rule by themselves.

Now I understand clearly what you mean by "merry-go-round". This does make the chart very complex & dynamic.

I am not sure how important is derived houses in natal analysis. I came across one instance in Morin's book 21 as of now - "However, the tenth house is the eighth from the third, and therefore, if the ruler of the third is in the tenth it indicates the death of the brothers?which can be frequently observed?and indicates honor and advantage to the native through his brothers; whence it can be concluded that the native, upon his brother's death, will succeed to his position and estate or will acquire these through inheritance; and so on."

......
Vasanth

King George VI is a good example of inheriting the power from brother.
3rd lord Jupiter is in 10th- retrogression shows that it was brothers recalcitrance that helped him.There is a mutual reception between the two as well.

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Geo ... of_England


But this chap could not inherit the legacy.. as the 3rd lord is in detriment and South Node is in the 10th.

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Kennedy%2C_Bobby

It will be interesting to look at charts where the power/wealth or business went to the sibling instead of the son.

Donatella Versace's 3rd lord is in the 5th and the 5th lord in the 1st.But there is no realtion between the 10th and the 3rd in terms of lordship or dispositorship.


Pankaj