Skyscript Astrology Forum

Posted: **Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:31 pm**

Morning Sun wrote:

And yes you are right, Lihin's and my comments probably should be in the Philosophy section. However, changing it now would tend to take away from the context.

My remarks were directed at the above.

Posted: **Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:08 pm**

I believe that Martin choose the correct charts. In my opinion, both charts of the children do NOT have a hyleg indicating a short life. Martin earlier in the thread suggested this possibility and I agree with him, at least I believe it was Martin that indicated that. No one was willing to come right out and say that.

That is if you do not use the Ascendant, and you follow Ptolemy?s rules.

I will venture my take on this, even though I do not feel as qualified as all those in this thread when it comes to hylegs and PD?s, ((I haven?t even learned how to do them yet, but I want to learn.)

Williams chart is entirely ruled by Mars trining the Asc, in the chain of rulerships. A very exalted Mars in Capricorn in the 4th house (endings). Saturn, the ruler of that placement is also very exalted in Libra. Unfortunately, both of the malefic rule this chart. The PD?s as well as the solar return and transits do bear this out.

Abigails chart also does not have a hyleg, in my opinion If one uses the Asc. The Sun is opposing the Asc in the 6th but on the descendant. The Sun is also squaring the Mars/Jupiter conjunction in the 4th hse (endings), with Jupiter also squaring the Asc, expanding (increasing)/combining Mars malefic energy to the Ascendant, via Jupiter conjunction, and Jupiters square to the Asc. In Abigails life I believe this is not the first time a critical event happened as her SR in 1981 was also very dangerous.

Regarding Lihin replies, yes, he can be arrogant, pompous, condescending and the like, but sometimes they can be quite enlightening to the conversation, he is also learning by our replies as I am by his and all others opinions and responses I rather welcome others opinions and perspectives.

Posted: **Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:22 pm**

There is a neat little book called "The Astrology of Accidents" by CEO Carter. This is actually a statistical study done on a collection of accident charts that Carter had compiled.

Carter's conclusion (page 49 of the 1960 edition) "These (the charts) seem to indicate clearly that peril from water is shown by an affliction of Neptune either to the ruler or to the lord or occupant of the 4th

However, Saturn, not Neptune, would seem to be the chief anaretic agent in drowning...."

Geoffrey

Posted: **Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:52 pm**

tom reads my comment correctly on the slice of worsdale i referred to.. he comes across as contradictory in it all.

morning sun the quote of mine, aside from being shortened to remove the context is actually referring to worsdale, not you! let me quote the slice you offered without the rest of the context again :

MorningSun wrote:
james_m wrote:

morning sun,

but if you believe the natal chart tells of a very short life, then why bother with the primary directions?..
that is in reference to worsdale, not you.. go back and read my post to get the proper context of it all.. but in reference to your response to me here, i can give you a response.
MorningSun wrote:
Hello James,

It is not only "if I believe the natal chart tells of a short life....", but "all that a person will enounter, achieve, etc, comes from the Radix" IS THE FOUNDATIONAL UNDERPINNINGS of Astrology, is it not?
indeed! this i don't think you will find anyone disagreeing with either..

speaking of quotes that are shortened or out of context, it would be nice if the author of the quote could be included when folks are quoting others too, so a person could go back and see the context if they wanted to..

the example below is actually a quote from morning sun, but you would need to pay attention or do some reading to know this..

zoidsoft wrote:
Regarding Hellenistic and Medieval astrology. The theories developed were from a very different world with very different beliefs, perspectives and very LIMITED KNOWLEDGE of the world...
Most astrologers today have a very limited understanding of classical philosophy.
astrologers could be accused of having a very limited understanding of the modern world too i suppose. the context is very important to understand, especially if one is going to rely on techniques used from the past. mind you there is a thread that runs thru the history of astrology that ought to tie it all together somehow. i tend to think most astrologers have certain strengths and weaknesses that interfere with their ability to understand what they are doing fully. i would say this about the experts too, as while they may be an expert in one area, their expertise can potentially exclude them from having a more rounded and balanced view on the many in's and out's to doing astrology in the present moment.

MorningSun wrote:The sequence of chart interpretation is to begin with the Natal Chart, THEN determine when those events will become active, and apply using PD's, Profections, Progressions, Transits, etc.

I realize this is a thread on Primary Directions, but the first step has not been determined.
i tend to think an astrologer will look at the natal chart and quickly imagine primary directions, or solar arc directions when they see close connections like conjunctions in the natal. i would do this without actually having to put up a 2nd chart when angles to planets form close aspects. i don't know that i am all that different then other astrologers, but this is what i do.. mind you, i am not offering my views and would be aghast at the idea of some astrologer offering a negative view on a chart that would be harmful to the person. i think of astrology as meant to be of benefit to a person.. also, i am not looking for death when i look at charts!

to me this thread is a study on primary directions. one can ask when one decides to examine them in individual charts. i don't have an immediate response for the real world.. in this thread i have worked with 2 other examples connected to the first chart that martin offered in this thread. it happened to engage very little conversation in regard to the primary directions, but a lot of conversation on a separate interest involving death in very young persons charts.. i don't have an answer for this and i am loath to think one can see an early death just looking at the natal chart.. however, that is what some authorities from the past are suggesting.. worsdale is a bit odd in echoing this same sentiment, while offering primary directions in an example on the death of a 2 year old regardless..

Posted: **Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:55 pm**

Geoffrey,

Being the modern astrologer that I am, yes, I could make a very good case regarding Neptune in both of these charts. (opposing Asc in one, and in the 4th in another. However as this is the Traditional and Ancient Techniques,Posts, I try to keep those out of it as the Traditional Astrologers do not use Neptune and I believe it annoys them.

Posted: **Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:06 pm**

The outer planets are not forbidden here. However the objection that I have and other traditionalists have is their use to the near exclusion of everything else. If it is part of a delineation - fine. Just don't make it all of it.

I once attended a lecture where the speaker used a chart said to be that of the Emperor Nero. The object of the lecture was to show how a contemporary of Nero's would have read the chart. He put up a chart that, understandably only had the 7 classical planets. The vast majority of the audience was seriously confused without Uranus Neptune and Pluto in the chart because those three planets represented about 80% of what they knew. That is what I want to avoid.

Posted: **Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:54 pm**

Hello James,

Yes, I know you were not referring to me, very clearly. I just assumed everyone read the previous post and knew it was worsdale. Sorry, I try to save room in a post, not to make it too long.

And yes, I see that my statement does look like part of Lihin's quote, didn't look that way as I was typing, but I see now, Sorry.

I need some hints on using the quote button, for quoting several people. Sometimes my brain goes faster than my typing and I type pretty fast.

Sorry again, will be more careful . Thanks so much for clarifying it for others and pointing it out to me. Very helpful

Posted: **Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:50 am**

hopefully varuna and my private message to you will help with the quoting morning sun!

here is the chart of the child that died close to their 2nd birthdate that was given as an example in the slice of john worsdale literature i had read from last night and touched on earlier today on this thread, for anyone that wants to consider the chart.

a topic that could be discussed around primary directions more at length might be the difference in the positions given in zodiac, verses their mundane position.. solar fire has an option that helps give you the positions in mundane, by treating the ascendant in a chart as zero aries and showing the planets as positioned according to their mundane position, as opposed to their zodiac position.. as you can see in this chart with james attersals birth chart on the inside in zodiac, while the outer wheel is in mundane - the positions are sometimes quite different and a distance away from where they would be in one or the other system. while attersals rising saturn appears to not square mars in the zodiac chart, mars is squaring saturn and the ascendant in the mundane chart - outer wheel...

this chart also gives declinations for one to see how planets that don't immediately appear to connect by zodiac, do indeed connect with the declination of these planets.. take a look at saturn to mercury in zodiac verses in mundane, but also take a look at how they form a parallel in the declinations.. parallels, and contra parallels are yet another conversation for folks getting interested in doing primary directions as it is yet another option for one to consider including when doing primary directions..

online photo sharing

Posted: **Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:29 am**

MorningSun wrote:Geoffrey,

Being the modern astrologer that I am, yes, I could make a very good case regarding Neptune in both of these charts. (opposing Asc in one, and in the 4th in another. However as this is the Traditional and Ancient Techniques,Posts, I try to keep those out of it as the Traditional Astrologers do not use Neptune and I believe it annoys them.

The first sentence of my quote was included for completeness. The second sentence was the point of my posting. Lithin doubted Saturn as the anaretic in cases of drowning and wanted some 'authority' on it. Here it is - evidence from actual charts gathered and analysed by a highly respected and capable astrologer.

While Carter may not be 'traditional' in the sense that he died less than three hundred years ago, I do not see that as a factor here. The fact that he used the term 'anaretic' indicates that he identified Saturn as a primary killer in drowning in a 'traditional' sense.

Geoffrey

Posted: **Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:51 am**

I hope I will not corrupt the thread by posting my own example since I found my chart very similar [at least in planet's position regarding the horizon] to the one Martin posted in the beginning of the thread.

This is my own chart:

Primary Directions:

Around age 4, when Mars as promitor at about 6? Scorpio hit by primary motion a square with my Sun [hyleg] at 2? Aquarius I almost died.
I had [as I was told] broken Large Intestine and problems with defecation and I fell into unconscious state several times out of pressure and constrictions. In one of that cases physicians thought that I am lost.

This is related to the event regarding Sun square Mars. I have some documents which says that these events took place in 1987, which would say that I was 3 years old, but my parents say that this is actually 1988 and is either an error in the documents or it is some other intervention in the hospital prior that crisis year.

In the same time, Ascendant moving by secondary motion, that is, in direction of the zodiac, encountered opposition to the Sun around the same age. I'm taking approximation of a degree per year.

Now, nothing related to my body happened at age 16 when Saturn by primary motion hit square to Sun, though, this was very, very hard period for me and my "esse" [state of being] if you know what I mean.
Although, my father had health problems in that time, and very great life crisis.

I'm a total beginner with the primary directions, so if some of the more experienced here find this example interesting, let feel free to comment.

Posted: **Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:10 am**

Ptolemy says:

The consideration of the length of life takes the leading place among inquiries about events following birth, for, as the ancient says, it is ridiculous to attach particular predictions to one who, by the constitution of the years of his life, will never attain at all to the time of the predicted events.

It is therefore appropriate to be able to answer the question of what age the native will live. This information is for us, not for the client. It has long been doing research on ancient astrological methods. I examine their potential, truthfulness.
Sample of 100 children was studied in question 3 category of birth. It's not much, but it can make a statement.
Functionality and methods hyleg ? alkochoden and almudebit is from my view and experience demonstrated. Course, the result may not always be perfect.
Variations may occur due to incorrect birth time, poor estimation or insufficient knowledge of the properties of individual elements of the chart, and finally a number of circumstances, that we may not be at the level of our knowledge or understanding available. It is important to use these methods with caution, as possible indicators and not absolute. This is an estimate attributed vital force and not a determination of whether a child or a person dies near specified time.
Even if they met all the conditions given category does not mean that child has to die, but is a high probability that it will be strongly handicapped.
Modern medicine can rescue and prolong life in many cases where it at an earlier time was not possible. The question is in what quality.
My thesis is available at (unfortunately only in my native language):

http://fragmenty.johannes.cz/

As for the primary direction.

Technique primary direction had originally dual purpose:

1) Description of human life from birth to death. It was a continuous the time course.
The basic method used to determine the ruler of the time (chronocrators) for the whole period of life.
The basis was the primary direction to the term and the second factor has been applied primary direction to the body and aspect of planets.

2) Determination of the only events in a person's life and that of his death. In this case it is only a single discrete time period. Ptolemy writes about this in part III. Tetrabiblos.

The first basic use was gradually forgotten.
Primary directions(described in point 1) are the first step prediction for many ancient astrologers. Similarly Firdaria or other techniques. They are inextricably bound up with the solar revolution, profection when prediction.
Primary directions are many types. I am using the most primary zodiacal directions without latitude to the angles and I add, when I rectify birth time, mundo parallels. Key Naiboda gives me the best results.

Posted: **Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:40 am**

By the way, a little reminder. Stars can act as anareta. Look at the primary direction Aldebaran and Antares in the chart Abigail. Both stars have the character of Mars.

Skyscript Astrology Forum

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Death by Drowning

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Re: Death by Drowning