Skyscript Astrology Forum

fromChina wrote:I thought Valens was the oldest dated back to his work 2000 years ago. And later centuries other astrologers add stuff to their rules of finding the Predominator.

No, Valens seems to have been roughly contemporary with Ptolemy, 2nd century CE. Here is a timeline with some questionable dates, but overall correct:
https://www.hellenisticastrology.com/ar ... trologers/

One last question Sir, since English is my third language so I want to make sure I understand this right. Here is the pic of the pages in Dementra book where she said about Valens method.

He clearly said in there the Degrees of the Ascendant or to the Midheaven (if Sun and Moon in cadent). Degrees here I can only think of the bound lord of my Asc which is Venus.

No, degree just means degree. Any aphetic point is located in a particular degree, whether it's the sun, the moon, the ascendant, the LoF, the syzygy, or something else. You need to know the degree in order to calculate the (primary) direction of that point up to a destroying planet or aspect. The distance between them are converted to ascensional degrees and equated to years of life: if there are, say, 73 such degrees between the aphetes (which could be the ascendant) and the square of Mars, for example, then the theory is that the native may die at age 73. Some modern translators call this technique 'circumambulation' or 'distribution', but it's the same thing under another name.

Some would say that if you take the ruler of the terms as the oikodespotes, then its aspect should fall in the actual terms that it rules; but there seems no reason to insist that a ruler of the sign as a whole (whether by domicile, exaltation or triplicity) must also send an aspect into the same terms.

But this is in Valens Anthology 3.1 book though Sir.

This is from Valens Anthology 3.1

Hi fromChina,

I took another look at your chart and what Valens says about the 'control' and 'houseruler'. Your chart is somewhat similar to the second example chart in Book 3 section 6 which has both lights cadent (Moon in 9th, Sun in 6th).
Valens says the "Ascendant was the apheta in the terms of Jupiter, and Jupiter was unfavorably situated [in the 3rd]. The nativity lacked a houseruler"

I wondered why Valens took the Ascendant over the MC as the apheta; I think it was because the sect light (the Moon) was trine the Ascendant from the 9th while the Sun in the 6th was averse. Even though the Sun is trine the MC, it is well below the horizon at 25 Pisces meaning the chart is definitely a night chart so preference is given to the Moon.

If we take the same path in your chart, the Sun and Moon are both cadent. The Sun is in the 9th, so definitely a day chart, and it is trine the Ascendant so the Ascendant (12 Cancer) is the apheta in the terms of Venus. Venus in the 8th is "turned away" from the Ascendant (the Control) so your nativity lacks a houseruler.
I made a mistake earlier in assuming the MC could act as a control in your chart given the Moon was sextile to it; the example chart appears to indicate the chart sect light's relation to the angles should be given preference in choosing which angle will act as control.

Hope that is of some help.

fromChina wrote:But this is in Valens Anthology 3.1 book though Sir.

This is from Valens Anthology 3.1

Yes, in that quotation the term ruler is clearly mentioned, and no alternative is given. That is different from Dorotheus' method. Riley's translation is a little free; I would translate: If both [luminaries] are cadent, the term of the ascending degree or of the culminating one will beget the rulership, chiefly the one whose ruler forms a configuration of familiarity with the ascendant. But the word for term (horion) is different from the word for degree (moiras).

Thank you Mrs. janegca, and Sir Martin.

Mrs. janegca,

If the term bound of my Asc (Venus in 8th) not qualify, then the ruler of my Asc (the Moon in 12th) also not qualify, because 12th house cannot see 1st house, that Moon cannot cast her rays to her 1st house Asc. The ruler of my Asc neglecting her own use.

Dorotheus said ascendant needs to witnessed by one of it lords--bound, triplicity, domicile, or exaltation. With Dorotheus I would have a Predominator though because Jupiter is Exalted in Cancer, that Capricorn Jupiter is in 7th house Opposition to Cancer 1st house.

But since we talk about Valens method. Valens book did say I can take the term of my MC can I? My MC is in Venus bound, and Aquarius Venus in 8th does Sextile Aries MC in 10th though. Wouldn't that count?

And with this from Valens too, wouldn't my Pisces Sun in 9th count because the Sun is the luminary that first send his rays to the Cancer Ascendant in 1st.


My Sun in 9th, my Moon in 12th, Valens said is Asc or Midheaven below, my MC would count though, No? The bound term of my MC is Venus and Venus in 8th above the horizon, and Sextile MC, no?

Martin Gansten wrote:Personally I don't use the tropical zodiac, so the chart I would see would be different, but putting that to one side for now, I think most Greek- and Arabic-language authors would have agreed that in a chart such as the one given here, the Asc in Cancer would be hyleg/aphetes/epikratetor (the last word is the one that some translate as 'predominator'), and Jupiter (its exaltation ruler), or possibly Mars (its secondary triplicity ruler), would be alcochoden/oikodespotes..

Sir, I'm sorry, I have a question as I want to get this clear.

Dorotheus said the planet (or ascendant) must witnessed by one of its lords--bound, triplicity, domicile, or exaltation.
I don't know if Dorotheus want it in that order, like triplicity would count first then exalted.

The bound of my Ascendant (Venus in 8th) clearly disqualify as 8th can't see 1st.
The domicile ruler of my Asc (the Moon in 12th) clearly disqualify too as 12th house Moon cannot see 1st house Cancer.

Now to triplicity, second triplicity is my Mars in 5th that Trine 1st house Cancer.

Exaltation is my Capricorn Jupiter in 7th that Opposition my 1st house Cancer. However, Jupiter is clearly in his Falling state.

Which in better position though for the Oikodespotes? Mars clearly in 5th is domicile in Scorpio sign, and Mars has my Aries MC in 10th where my activities is.
Jupiter is in it fall and 7th house. Which Opposition to my 1st. While Mars has a Trine to my 1st.

Which would you think it better for Oikodespotes, since both Mars and Jupiter aspect to my Asc so they both qualify.

Thank you so so much Sir.

sorry accidently click post twice. eta

fromChina wrote:Dorotheus said the planet (or ascendant) must witnessed by one of its lords--bound, triplicity, domicile, or exaltation.
I don't know if Dorotheus want it in that order, like triplicity would count first then exalted.

Nor do I, I'm afraid. The text as we have it (in Arabic) says to prioritize the term ruler followed by the triplicity ruler, but it doesn't specify whether all three triplicity rulers can be used or just the primary one (which in this case would be the same, Venus).

This is the problem with all or nearly all sources: they provide outlines but leave out important details. The text of Valens as we have it also gives the combination of sun in the 9th and moon in the 11th twice, with two different outcomes. That doesn't apply to your chart specifically, but it illustrates the problem with taking the texts literally (or even worse, making them into computer algorithms) rather than trying to understand the underlying principles.

With my Cancer Asc, it said Ruler is the Moon (obviously this not qualify Moon in 12th cannot send rays to 1st house Asc).
Exaltation is Jupiter that would work, but Jupiter in his fall but in angular 7th house.
Next is first Triplicity which is Venus, but Venus in 8th though, cannot send rays to 1st house Asc neither.

Then come second triplicity is Mars which Scropio Mars in 5th house Trine 1st house Cancer Asc, both by sign and by house.
Next is bound, and my Asc in Venus bound, which not qualify due to Venus in 8th.

Doesn't seem like I have much choices.


Today someone help get the Predominator and Master of my chart to predict the length of my life,
and I was told this: quote "So - If I am am right, and Fortune is the predominator, Venus is the master, she is in a succedent house, unaspected from Jupiter or the luminaries, so she gives 45 years. Mars overcomes her, subtract 15 months, you die at 43.5. All a bit fatalistic though..."

I born in March 1984, I'm 38, long term married. Meaning I only have 5-6 more years with my husband. Maybe I should tell him now to find a new wife, lol.

I am fine with die early, as we all have to die one day anyways. And I sure don't want to live till too old neither. But I sure didn't think I only have 5-6 years left with my husband. As I'm 38 now and I will die at 43.5

Anyways, kindda bummer.

I didn't think a Venus in 8th who got Square hard by Mars at 0 orb exactly, and also has to live under Mars bound, this Venus is clearly detriment.
And I thought the Ascendant is more important than Lot of Fortune in astrology, and Venus is 8th Aversion to my Asc in 1st, but then Venus get to be the Oikodespotes of my chart? yikes.

I was wondering, if anyone know if Dorostheus use Porphyry house system or Whole sign?
Because in Placidus, Equal house, Porphyry, it start at my 12 degrees Ascendant (unlike Whole sign), and my Lot of Fortune is in 3rd house.
Which Dorotheus did say he want it to be in 1st, 10th or 11th. So 3rd house I know he will not count that Fortune.

I am not convince my Venus, whom in 8th house, under Mars/term bound, has to operate under Mars bound, lost out the square to Mars both my sign and houses. And Venus is my Master of Nativity (Oikodespotes).

I'm not convince on Venus or the Moon because I know NO Ancient astrologers would let a planet in 12th or 8th house to be the Master, it not strong enough to sustain the life force of the whole chart.

If use the Ascendant, Jupiter (the exalted of Cancer) is in 6th house (if go by Porphyry system), I don't know if that falling Capricorn Jupiter is strong enough, which then give it to second triplicity lord which is Mars. Venus the first triplicity lord is in Mars bound/term and Mars is in rulership (Venus not), wouldn't Mars have the upper hand here?

Where can I read Dorotheus ancient text? Because I don't know if he use Whole sign or Porphyry.

I still prefer Valens, because Valens is the oldest text we have, astrologers after that add in stuff and write up their own rules. Valens never allow the Fortune to be the control (which is the Predominator). He only allow Asc or MC if Sun and Moon fail.

This is my chart in Porphyry system , it same with Equal and Placidus too. It started out with my 12 deg Asc. That is a 3rd house Fortune.