I was sure that Yuzuru would reply to this Smile

I will try to be less predictable next time

Well at this point I'm thinking to write an article for our Italian journal or maybe a lecture if someone ask me:)

Good plan. Just wish I could understand Italian.

I would certainly love to read anything you produce if you are kind enough to translate it into English.

I am sure you have made many people here aware how the art of delineating comets is almost totally lost in modern astrology. I looked at one website ( I will not name it) where the astrologer interpreted comet Lulin as implying greater International harmony because it was a joint discovery between China and Tawain.

I mean how lame is that in terms of astrological technique?

Incidentally, just realised my analysis of the Australian charts was a bit flawed as I was thinking of Comet Lulin moving with the order of the signs rather than against zodiacal order. Old habits die hard.

yuzuru wrote:

I was sure that Yuzuru would reply to this Smile

I will try to be less predictable next time

It's just I cast an horary before writing my comment so I could guess
Margherita

MarkC wrote:
This is the early 6th century Byzantine writer known as Joannes Laurentius Lydus? Sorry I do not understand your reference here. Did he write on comets?

It seems like that, in De Ostentis.

What is the Arcana Mundi?

Giuseppe Bezza, Arcana Mundi: Antologia Del Pensiero Astrologico Antico (Milano: Biblioteca Universale Rizzoli, 1995).

A compilation of astrological texts, the greatest part taken from manuscripts- from Hellenism to Renaissance.
Moreover out of print now.

For some strange coincidence the pages about Pseudo-Ptolemaus (the manuscript is in Paris) have in note Hephaestio text and translation.

Anyway it's difficult to say if Hephaestio was the first author to attach planets to comets. Lydus wrote a little later.

In every case surely they were not the first astrologers to mention comets.

Margherita

It seems like that, in De Ostentis.

So have you read this yourself?

Giuseppe Bezza, Arcana Mundi: Antologia Del Pensiero Astrologico Antico (Milano: Biblioteca Universale Rizzoli, 1995). A compilation of astrological texts, the greatest part taken from manuscripts- from Hellenism to Renaissance. Moreover out of print now. For some strange coincidence the pages about Pseudo-Ptolemaus (the manuscript is in Paris) have in note Hephaestio text and translation.

Ok now I dont feel bad that I had no idea what you were talking about.

Anyway it's difficult to say if Hephaestio was the first author to attach planets to comets. Lydus wrote a little later. In every case surely they were not the first astrologers to mention comets.

I have no idea if Hephaistio was the first astrologer to write about the shape and colour of comets. It seems highly unlikely considering he was writing in the late 4th century. However, I am not aware of any earlier astrological discussion of this area in depth. Are you? It seems probable the earlier astrological sources that influenced Hephaistio were lost over time.

Incidentally, what did you think of my earlier comments on comet McNaught? Would you agree on the attribution of comet type I suggested from Hephaistio/Pseudo-Ptolemy?

Mark

Hello Mark,

MarkC wrote: So have you read this yourself?

No, I have just the mention and the reference. Lydus wrote in Greek.
I believe it is translated in Italian, but I have not.

Ok now I dont feel bad that I had no idea what you were talking about.

You asked me what is Arcana Mundi and I gave you the reference.

However, I am not aware of any earlier astrological discussion of this area in depth. Are you? It seems probable the earlier astrological sources that influenced Hephaistio were lost over time.

I don't understand what you mean by astrological sources and what not.
Ptolemy mentions comets and the same Manilius. And Latin writers mention Petosiris as a reference for comets.
Clearly Pliny was the authority on the subjiect. Everybody repeated his classification till the begininning of modern age, Hevelius writes at the end of 1600 .

For example as we saw together the Sword comet in Haephestio was exactly like it was in Plinius, yellowish and pale.

In my opinion there is plenty of literature about omen and comets before Haephestio, anyway I'm not the expert.

Incidentally, what did you think of my earlier comments on comet McNaught? Would you agree on the attribution of comet type I suggested from Hephaistio/Pseudo-Ptolemy?

Yes, it makes sense to me. It looks like an human face

margherita

I don't understand what you mean by astrological sources and what not. Ptolemy mentions comets and the same Manilius. And Latin writers mention Petosiris as a reference for comets. Clearly Pliny was the authority on the subjiect. Everybody repeated his classification till the begininning of modern age, Hevelius writes at the end of 1600 .

For example as we saw together the Sword comet in Haephestio was exactly like it was in Plinius, yellowish and pale. In my opinion there is plenty of literature about omen and comets before Haephestio, anyway I'm not the expert.

Well Ptolemy says very little about the shape and colour of comets in Tetrabiblos. I accept Pliny influenced later astrologers but I was discussing only hellenistic astrologers writing on comets regarding their shape and colour. Pliny was not an astrologer..agreed? However, I have not looked at Firmicus. Sounds worth exploring.

Yes, it makes sense to me. It looks like an human face

You wouldn't be teasing by any chance?

MarkC wrote: Pliny was not an astrologer..agreed?

No

I don't see the difference. We are talking about another vision of the world.
Virgil and Augustus were not astrologers but they could talk about a Venusian comet.
The limit was not so neat. At least I believe so.

Maybe Haephestio put in a more organised way previous authors' work, I don't know, to me the whole process seems more fluid....we know just that around 1000 the text was codified if Bonatti or Grosseteste can repeat word by word.
I really cannot find who was the author.
Anyway if you think that Haephestio was the original author of Pseudo- Ptolemaus is not a problem for me

You wouldn't be teasing by any chance?

At this point i'm very curious to read the text of your lecture, you will publish it in the net? It would be beautiful...

Margherita

I really dont think there is a disagreement between us about Pliny or Hephaistio. Just a slightly different way of presenting the same facts. I accept Pliny is a very influential source on later astrologers.

You have a good point that comets seem to interest people who would otherwise not even consider astrology such as many Christian sources.
I suppose it is largely the fact that a naked eye, daylight visible, bright comet (Like Hale-Bopp) commands our attention in a way few other things in the heavens do.

At this point i'm very curious to read the text of your lecture, you will publish it in the net? It would be beautiful...

My talk on comets covers many issues. The classical view, Christian attitudes to comets, and developing scientific understanding. For example, I discuss the Centaurs , such as Chiron, which are really trapped comets.
In physical terms many comets are made of similar Kuiper belt material to Pluto. Its interesting how our view of comets has turned full circle. They are once again feared but nowadays for the legitimate concern they could collide with earth in the future as they have in the past. I have looked into several alleged major impacts in history.

Then I examine various delineation techniques. Nothing you dont know already of course. The approach is mostly visual as I tend to memorise material where possible. I think too much text turns people off.

I go on to argue that Comet McNaught and Holmes were the heralds of the credit crunch. Not highly original I accept but true I feel. I look at all kinds of charts. National, lunation, and first visibility. Its interesting that UK (1927 chart) , US (Sibly chart 1776) and Ireland ( 1949) all have Sagittarius rising placing comet McNaught in the 2nd house of all these charts when first visible. I have lots and lots of pictures of beautiful comets of course. I also 'borrowed' your pictures of charts by Tycho Brahe and Cardano. Hope you dont mind? Especially, Brahe's chart of the Nova of 1572. Its beautiful. It looks so cool.

I have also tried to link historical events to all the 20th century comets. This seems to work quite well. I have attempted to be as global as possible in perspective as people can look at trivial events in their own country and ignore massive events in the rest of the world.

I haven't really put together a lot of wriiten material yet. However, I do hope to summarise some of this down to a manageable piece somewhere on the net. I therefore plan to write an article on my Association's website. When I do you will certainly be acknowledged as a major source. and inspiration I think I have got the comet bug now.

Mark

Regarding the delineation of comets one topic we have still not discussed is the issue of comet tails. An important matter for comets unless like Manx cats they lack one.

Many traditional authorities mention that one should also look at the sign where a comet's tail is pointing. Astronomically the tail of a comet is usually pointing in the opposite direction from the Sun.

In the case of Lulin the Comet was first discovered at around 15 Scorpio.
The comet is quite unusual as it has been moving against the order of the signs/planets. I perhaps risk being quite naive here astronomically but can we assume from this, this places the tail of the comet facing the tropical sign behind its direction of travel? In which case this means the tail of Lulin was first pointing in the direction of the tropical sign of Sagittarius? Traditional authorities seem to imply the influence of the comet will also be felt in countries associated with the direction of the tail too.

In the case of Lulin the Comet was first discovered at around 15 Scorpio.
The comet is quite unusual as it has been moving against the order of the signs/planets.

If you take Johndro's conception of signrulership, Lulin is an incoming thing, i.e. moving from the domain of Uranus and into the the domain of Saturn. It is truly interesting that the discovery degree of Lulin is on the launching of the Kepler telescope. I think this gives the Kepler project the extra flare.

Hello Andrew,

If you take Johndro's conception of signrulership, Lulin is an incoming thing, i.e. moving from the domain of Uranus and into the the domain of Saturn. It is truly interesting that the discovery degree of Lulin is on the launching of the Kepler telescope. I think this gives the Kepler project the extra flare.

You have totally lost me here. What was Johndro's system of sign rulership? Why is Luilin moving from Uranus to Saturn? I am not sure if this is what you mean but it does seem interesting to examine comet Lulin's last planetary conjunction (or even aspect) before it closely conjuncted Saturn. That does seem an interesting approach to explore.

Regarding 15 Scorpio its worth noting in the modern era it has been quite close to the star Zuben-el-Genubi also known as south scale or the southern claw. Its generally presented as malefic traditionally and of the nature of Mars and Saturn. However, in his book on fixed stars George Noonan claims the star had a very benefic reputation in Babylonian astrology.