It's always interesting to explore these issues in depth.

Marjorie Orr, a well known British astrologer made an observation about NK leader Kim Jong Il in one of her blogs at the time when tensions were rising over the NK shelling of Yeonpyoeng island last month. She said...

".....His sort-of Presidency chart of 8 July 1994 has tr Saturn coming to square the Sun (16 Cancer) later this year which might just see the end of him." Her comments are purely speculative of course, but shifting our focus to America's role in the region, it should be remembered that there are 30,000 US serviceman stationed at the Korean DMZ. Any instability on the Korean peninsula will directly affect China and the US because of prior treaty obligations.

The Dec 29th Mars-Saturn square occurs in mid cardinal degrees, noted for being a vulnerable region in the US chart due to the US natal Sun-Saturn square at 13 Cancer and 14 Libra. One vivid example comes to mind...... In a chart drawn for the first impact at the World Trade Center 9/11 attacks; both tr. Mercury and the ascendant were at the 14 Libra degree mark in t square to the MC and Nadir at 16 Cancer-Capricorn. Here's the chart: http://starcats.com/first_impact.html

Astrologer Robert Gover has done some research on the US Sun-Saturn square and its pivotal role in US/world affairs. Although the article "Saturn and Great Depressions" addresses the Saturn in Capricorn transits in the US chart, I find it equally applicable to the current transits. Here's the article: http://www.stariq.com/Main/Articles/P0000463.HTM

I think we may have another opportunity on Monday to see if there is going to be a further deterioration of relations between the two countries.

There is a Sun/Pluto conjunction (5 '9 Capr.) and a Moon/ near stationary Mercury conjunction (19/20 Sag) on the 27th.

In her Starlightnews blog of Nov 30th Nancy Sommer wrote:

"....... the Spring Equinox chart for 2010 (is) another indicator of the present situation. In both the charts drawn for Pyongyang and the chart drawn for Seoul (3/21/10, 2:33 AM), we find a very tight Mars/MC square, suggesting some kind of aggressive rhetoric or action from the respective governments. In addition, we find that Pluto (5Capricorn20) is conjunct the Ascendant (6Capricorn10) in the Pyongyang Equinox chart. This conjunction will come into full manifestation from late December 2010 through January 2011 when Pluto crosses the exact Ascendant degree. We can expect extreme manipulation and angling for power from the Kim regime, aggravated by its sense of victimization and paranoia as it views the world through its own distorted lens."

Here's the chart for December 27th:

Symbolism can play very odd tricks on the psyche. Would North and South Korea actually go to war over a silly Christmas tree? The practice of erecting a Christmas tree at the DMZ had been discontinued 7 years ago as a way of lessening tensions between the two Koreas. This year however is different. Not only has South Korea defiantly put up the 100 foot tree, but announced that it would not be dismantled until January 8th which coincidentally falls on the day of Kim Jong un's birthday, the son and would be NK leader/successor to father Kim Jong Il.

North Korea Threatens War Over South's Christmas Lights

http://www.aolnews.com/2010/12/22/north ... as-lights/

Hi, Goran

'm referring to Aries ingress of 1948 here and elsewhere in the text

I would not recommend this chart. The time that modern astrologers use for the "beginning" of a country is rarely useful to find the traditional aries ingress for the foundation of a dynasty.

It has been my experience that these charts are pretty resilient to the "re-foundations" that we find in the way. Germany, for instance, seem to follow his 1800 austrian-german empire chart, even though have suffered several constitutional transformations, interruption of democratic rights during Hitler, and the division of the whole country by the superpowers.

the same with Korea, I find a little strange, after almost several centuries that a country called "Korea" already existed, to say that the "real" chart would be in the 50?s, because the US and URSS were playing hegemony. It may have relevance to North Korea, but I don?t feel it is good for a greater picture.

Unfortunately I don?t have enough knowledge about Korea, so I am relying only on poor wikipedia. Two times seem interesting: the unification of Korea under Joseon dynasty (ingress of 1392), and the re-fundation of Korea as an empire (1897). Any of those charts have the additional point that we can compare them with important historical events, like the japanese invasion or the Korean War. I tried the 1948 ingress anyway, but it doesn?t fit the bill.

Below the 1392 and 1897 ingress charts
http://episthemologie.files.wordpress.c ... a-1392.jpg
http://episthemologie.files.wordpress.c ... a-1897.jpg

The Moon assumed rulership with the Aries ingress of 2008, so one should also take a look at its position there in order to ascertain its significations for the following 9 years of rulership(this is how I understood the principle from one of Steven's previous posts here on Skyscript - Steven, please correct me if I'm mistaken

I can vouch that Steven used the natal firdaria that way, I am not sure about his use of mundane firdaria, but this have been my personal use of it, so I think our methodologies are pretty close, Goran.

Japan invaded Korea in 1905 and declared as a Japanese protectorate and officially annexed in 1910.

Below I compare the two charts, but I am far from a conclusion.

1392 ingress - mundane firdaria of moon. Moon is a very malefic planet for this chart, opposing the ASC, in her fall. It promises strife and suffering for the common people. This firdar began in 1903, where we can see that the moon is in capricorn in the 12th house, sextile mercury-jupiter in pisces, square mars in libra.
http://episthemologie.files.wordpress.c ... a-1903.jpg

Besides, the Great Conjunction of 1881 was on Korea?s 1892 ASC, and the GC of 1901 was at 14Capr, close to the proposed MC of 17Capr.

1897 ingress - more difficult to evaluate, because the invasion began during the first firdar. The second firdar began in 1908. Jupiter in this chart rules again the 7th house, trining a sun-saturn conjunction (Foreign Jupiter on the national ground - 4th house) The previous great conjunction don?t affect the angles of these, or the 1897 ingress.

Korean War

1392 ingress - mundane firdar is Sun (1947). In the inception chart, sun is in the 12th, rulesthe 5th, opposing saturn. In 1947 we have sun in the 6th, trining saturn in the 10th.

1897 ingress - mundane firdar is mercury (1945). In the inception, mercury is in detriment in the 7th of enemies. It makes a loose sextile to venus, her dispositor by exaltation. IN 1945 chart?s, we have mercury in the 12th, making no aspects. It is in on the antiscia of the inception?s ASC.

The GC of 1940 was in 14 Taurus. In the 1392 chart, it squares inception mars. In the 1947, it hits venus (transiting over the natal mars). In the 1897?s chart, it is conjunct natal venus, and this degree is the ASC of the 1945 chart.

I don?t know if anybody is still with me so far :-P, but I plan to take another look at this if time permits.

Hi Yuzuru,

Not to dismiss any of the thoughts you just shared, but going far back into history (pre-world war two era), how much of that is applicable to current conditions is unclear to me. I'm sure there is relevance, but just how much is open to question.

I like Lynn Hayes rationale on the modern day September 9, '48 birth chart for North Korea. I think once a viable chart has been established, perhaps then a comprehensible analysis can be made from there. Here's her article....

The Astrology of North Korea

Before you can have an accurate astrological profile, you must have an accurate date of birth. In a mundane chart of a nation this gets a little tricky. What is the moment of birth? Is it the moment that the nation is announced? Is it when the constitution is signed? Ratified? New leaders elected?

In my online research today I found several different dates used by astrologers for North Korea. There is a chart for August 10, 1945, the date that the US War Department decided to partition the country at the 38th parallel. There is a chart for September 10, 1948 which appears to have come originally from Nick Campion's Book of World Horoscopes and is incorrect.

In my view, using the August 1945 date for North Korea is a bit like using the time of conception for a birthchart. Information from the US State Department and several Korean websites confirm that the actual birthing of the Democratic People's Republic of North Korea (DPRK) was proclaimed by Kim Il Sung on September 9, 1948, and this is the day that is celebrated by the North Korean people as the founding anniversary.

Continued.......

http://blog.beliefnet.com/astrologicalm ... l#comments

Let's try that one more time......

The Astrology of North Korea

http://blog.beliefnet.com/astrologicalm ... korea.html

Hello Yuzuru,

Thanks thats an interesting piece of research. Your suggestion that we should focus on the Korean ingress for either 1392 or the re-foundation of Korea as an empire (1897) opens up a new area of exploration. More fundamentally, you raise some basic questions on what is the basis of a valid foundational ingress chart?

Certainly, the key ingress chart is quite different from how one might determine a current national chart. In the case of national charts the latest chart is often preferred. However, for a foundational ingress chart one can go back to the founding of a nation or state.

However, I was also under the impression that traditional authors looked at a new chart for a new dysnasty? Am I wrong? Hence one could argue democratic and commuinst Koreas represent a complete reformation of everything that has gone before and justify a fresh foundational ingress. On your logic if one was putting forward a key ingress chart for say France one would need to look at the ingress for the crowning of Emperor Charlemagne and the start of the Carolingians or even the earlier Merovingian kings.. However, I would argue a pivotal event like the revolution marked a fundamental departure of such magnitude that this requires a fresh ingress chart. The problematic issue is whether the subsequent changes to the French Republic leading up to the current 5th Republic require separate charts.

Unfortunately, the key mundane text for study on this subject: Abu Mashar's On Historical Astrology: The Book of Religions and Dynasties (On the Great Conjunctions) translated by Keiji Yamamoto and Charles Burnett (Leiden and Boston: Brill, 2000) costs an astronomical amount of money to buy and will be beyond the price range of most readers here including myself.

Maybe Steven can chip in with his perspective here on how traditional authorities like Abu Mashar approached foundational charts?

Mark

I don?t have an answer for you Mark: but my experiments with Germany?s charts was that the later charts (reunification year, 1918, post war, etc) seemed to have poorer results. So, there seem to be some degree of resilience in the important charts.

you can also have several layers of charts... one for the foundation of a religion, of a state inside the religion, of a dynasty inside the state, etc.

Of course, only predictive work can show you how is the "real" chart, but there are only so many hours in the day.

I don?t have an answer for you Mark: but my experiments with Germany?s charts was that the later charts (reunification year, 1918, post war, etc) seemed to have poorer results. So, there seem to be some degree of resilience in the important charts.

you can also have several layers of charts... one for the foundation of a religion, of a state inside the religion, of a dynasty inside the state, etc.

Of course, only predictive work can show you how is the "real" chart, but there are only so many hours in the day.

Thanks Yuzuru,

Its a fascinating area. I think it would be interesting to open another thread on this and discuss ideas and research on other countries too.

Mark

Hello Yuzuru, Mark

I'm glad the discussion has taken this particular direction

"The older, the better" is in many ways my favorite stance, especially concerning traditional astrology since I believe that the 'foundations' are of the utmost importance in any area of human endeavor. If these are not well known/established and respected, nothing that's built over the course of time can stand well and crumbles sooner or later.

That's why I like Yuzuru's point of using the foundational ingress chart for Korea dating back to 1392.
On the other hand, Mark has also got the point by stating

However, I was also under the impression that traditional authors looked at a new chart for a new dysnasty? Am I wrong? Hence one could argue democratic and commuinst Koreas represent a complete reformation of everything that has gone before and justify a fresh foundational ingress. On your logic if one was putting forward a key ingress chart for say France one would need to look at the ingress for the crowning of Emperor Charlemagne and the start of the Carolingians or even the earlier Merovingian kings.However, I would argue a pivotal event like the revolution marked a fundamental departure of such magnitude that this requires a fresh ingress chart.

I also think the N. Korea's 'new foundation' as a communist state justifies the use of a fresh ingress chart - that of 1948. But that's just my personal opinion which isn't backed by much work/experience in mundane astrology so I hope Steven might drop by to help us sort things out a bit.

For what it's worth, here are some of my observations concerning the beginning of the war in June of 1950. by using ingress chart of 1948.

The ascendant of the Aries ingress of 1950. falls directly on the Moon, thus activating the issues related to 7th/8th houses. Mars is retrograde, in a tight opposition to the Sun and is with the lot of war in Libra. The angles of the chart repeat the 'horoscope of the world' theme and cardinal signs on the angles suggest instability and change. The contesting/destabilizing influence of Mercury in Pisces(as a ruler of the radical 7th) is especially felt since it is in conjunction with part of war of the inception ingress, and rules the 3rd and 12th houses(neighboring state as an enemy of the nation). The ruler of the ascendant, Jupiter, is dangerously placed inside the 8th.
The Moon is aspecting the degree of the ascendant by a square from Aries in the 10th, as well as the lot of war by opposition.
Saturn, the ruler of firdar, is in the 3rd (neighboring countries; rules the 7th and the 8th) and comes out of the radical 8th, where he's conjunct Mars. Significantly enough, the war starts in a profected year ruled by Saturn - a strong emphasis on the greater malefic by both firdar and profection. What I find even more astonishing are the positions of both rulers of lot of war (radical - Jupiter, and of the year - Venus) placed in Aquarius, which thus actually become co-rulers for the entire year and divide the rulership among themselves! Jupiter rules the 9th(international matters) and 6th (injuries, armies, enemies).

The chart of the summer quarter when the war actually broke out repeats bad aspect between Sun/Mars - this time it's a square, again reinforcing the danger of Mars-like issues. Probably the worst signification of this quarter's ingress is that its ascendant falls in Leo, few degrees apart from radical Mars/Saturn conjunction in the 8th. Ramesey mentions such constellation as signifying wars/slaughters.
The Moon is in conjunction with Saturn in the second, signifying detriment/much suffering to the people and the loss to their livelihood. The radical ruler of the 7th, Mercury, is in conjunction with Aldebaran(nature of Mars) whereas Jupiter is again in the 8th, this time in Pisces, in separating square with Mercury. More importantly, Jupiter is applying to Saturn by opposition in the (whole-sign) angles of the radical ingress, perhaps the most explicit sign of war in this chart. Venus, the ruler of lot of war, is the only angular planet in the 10th and she's oriental, close enough to Algol.

To me, at least, these testimonies appear convincing enough - but I'm sure others might find some even more convincing, using other inception ingress charts and charts of superior conjunctions, etc. which I haven't used in this analysis.

Regards,
Goran

Hi Goran,

You wrote:

The chart of the summer quarter when the war actually broke out repeats bad aspect between Sun/Mars - this time it's a square, again reinforcing the danger of Mars-like issues.

The one common denominator between the June 25, 1950 Korean war chart and the March 26th, 2010 sinking of the South Korean naval ship Cheonan, an incident largely responsible for the heightening of current tensions in the region has to do with the harsh square transits at the 5 cardinal degree position.

Note the Mars-Uranus square at 5 Cancer-Libra in the 6/25/50 chart:

http://mountainastrologer.com/assets/wo ... eanWar.gif

Turning our attention to the March 26th sinking of the Cheonan, note the Sun-Pluto square at 5 Aries-Capricorn and the simultaneous Mercury (17 Aries) t square to the nodes at 17 Cancer-Capricorn.
This begs the question, what exactly are these transits triggering? Using the Sept. 9, '48 chart (12 noon) for North Korea as a reference, I would speculate it has to do with the semi-square to North Korea's natal Chiron at 20 Scorpio in the 12th house, the house of secrets and reclusiveness, the most sensitive area in the chart.

Here's one astrologer's take on Chiron:

Chiron in the Birth Chart


In the astrological birth chart, Chiron reflects the archetypal energies of the shamanic wounded healer and teacher that potentially lives within each one of us. The jury is still out on this issue, but Chiron's placement in the birth chart typically appears to reflect an accidental wounding we have received (most often) in early childhood.

This Chironian wounding is an injury to our instinctual nature and a wounding of trust.

The wounding was generally done by someone close to us... someone we thought well of and trusted. According to astrologer Liz Greene, the wounding was generally brought about as the result of a stupid, careless, thoughtless accident... so there is normally no one who can be blamed with purposely, intentionally, maliciously wounding us.

So the wounding is a wounding of trust... and, further, a Chironian wound is an injury that will never, ever totally heal. We learn, suffer and grow from dealing with this sensitive area of wounded instinct and trust.... but the wounding will never totally heal and go away.

This Chironian wounding can then, later in life and after much personal struggle, become a special area where we can help others by sharing our healing and teaching powers with them. - END Of QUOTE -

If this supposition is correct, I think we will have another opportunity to closely view exactly how these transits unfold when we arrive at the December 28th last quarter Moon at 5/6 Libra in square to the Sun Pluto conjunction at 5/6 Capricorn.

Can this be the deciding factor?

South Korea To Hold Naval Firing Drills

Dec 26, 2010
Press TV

South Korea plans to hold a fresh round of naval firing drills at 23 locations around the Korean Peninsula, excluding areas near the disputed sea border with North Korea.

"This is part of a regular practice involving army, naval and air forces... and the state-run Agency for Defense Development will also conduct ammunition tests off the west coast," a spokesman for the South Korean Joint Chiefs of Staff told AFP on Sunday.

The drills will be held around the Korean peninsula from December 27 to 31, the report added.

Continued.......

http://presstv.com/detail/157193.html