Paul,

Re: "What were your thoughts on the charts out of interest?"

Since you asked... when I first looked at the charts, I thought the first one was the musician because of two main points. One was that the Moon was in the 5th House, a reigning need to personal creative expression and the ruler of the 5th being in the 7th, giving the outlet to the public, since I had assumed this person PERFORMED music. (Technically, he could have been a musician that never left his bedroom, though!) The other thing was that Neptune trined the Sun, with Neptune being in the 2nd House, which I routinely read the 2nd House as "talents", with the trine showing ease of using this personal resource for personal creative expression. Since I have a prominent Neptune myself [Sun-Jupiter-Neptune Grand Trine in Water, with Neptune at cusp 5], also a life-long musician, I believe that certain ELEMENTS of music are definitely under Neptune's domain. [Listen to Pink Floyd "Echoes" once, please. If you get more of a vibe of Venus from this than Neptune, then we have very fundamental differences in our perceptions of the root symbolism of the planets. Not that either is right/wrong, just different.]

Knowing that Tom is clever and also knowing that he can be...let's say...cagey at times (no offense, Tom), made me think that it wouldn't be too easy... ie. there is some misleading factor about these charts that would likely lead a superficial analysis astray. Because of this, I went over the charts several times. Still, I constantly came back to chart number 1 as the musician for the above mentioned reasons.

As an aside... I personally think that several planets relate fundamentally to music, depending on which perspective upon or element of the music we are talking about. Venus helps to make aesthetically pleasing things...so it is obviously related. That being said, Mercury also fits into the mix, especially for someone that composes music. For a performer who generally needs to keep impeccable timing (for instance complex classical pieces), Saturn becomes important as it gives a good internal sense of timing. For painting imagery through music and for allowing the timing to "breath", to me requires Neptune.

Thanks for asking, Paul

By the way, let me pay you a personal compliment publicly. I have read many of your posts here and on a certain other forum, and I must say that I really like your enthusiasm about astrology (witnessed by your numerous posts as well as staying in the discussion to the bitter end when it seems like something good can still come out of it) as well as your cutting straight to the issue when embroiled in arguments. (ie. staying logical, instead of emotionally swayed) These are qualities that I admire and you have them in spades. Good job.

Peace

James

Paul,

Re: "I wonder if someone could anonymise the date and do the same thing for a client of theirs who is relatively successful or enjoys their career. Would this be possible?"

I have many professional clients from international working models to charity foundation organizers, etc.

What is it that you are trying to surmise from the chart? (worldly success?, personal happiness in their chosen field?, perfect synchronization of chart with chosen career?)

Peace

James

Yeah, good idea to post in both traditional and modern sections.

I do think the outers bring this chart to life in terms of influence, determination and success. Pluto on the asc is a hugely determined individual, a person with presence and who can easily influence others with their passion and powers of persuasion. With the asc ruler applying to a to trine pluto on the asc, these two planets are the foundation of the personality. I dont but of course many modern astrologers give rulership of scorpio to pluto and this chart would give credence to this as an affinity - the moon is getting a nod from both its 'rulers'. Moon may traditionally not be seen to be strong in scorpio but individuals with scorpio planets are always focussed to put it mildly. I think too much is made in terms of negativity concerning planets in detriment and fall, these planets just work differently to the standard ideas established thousands of years ago when astrology was first analysing the human psyche and motivation to the proposed morality of the day imo. Am pleased and not surprised that neptune so closely aspects the sun - the hard and soft aspects from neptune to the lights produce musicality and neptune instills glamour and influence in bucketloads.

Atlantean wrote: I have many professional clients from international working models to charity foundation organizers, etc.

What is it that you are trying to surmise from the chart? (worldly success?, personal happiness in their chosen field?, perfect synchronization of chart with chosen career?)

Well originally I just meant something along the same lines as what Tom did - show some charts and pick the pianist (or whatever profession).

I say someone happy in their career because the world is filled with people who did their career not out of any love for it but because they had to take on the family business, or the parents pressured them to do it. I think we might well have seen a chart like the pianist here, but his parents made him choose another career path because, perhaps, they were all academic or business types instead.

So a career where the individual is content in their job would make it easier to guess it basically. At least that's what I'd assume!

Still, I constantly came back to chart number 1 as the musician for the above mentioned reasons.

What I really want to do is go back over everyone's rationale for assigning the musician to chart one. It seems that chart one was the more popular chart for the musician, but my memory was that everyone had slightly different reasons for thinking it was chart one. Your own reasons are different again. And yet despite all using different methods or focusing on different parts of the chart, lots of us got chart one. Isn't that kind of interesting? It definitely points towards there being more than one way to approach this kind of question and perhaps several different testimonies toward music written into this chart.

Venus helps to make aesthetically pleasing things...so it is obviously related. That being said, Mercury also fits into the mix, especially for someone that composes music.

Yes, I think particularly for something like piano. If it was drums or something, I might have thought more so venus and saturn. What I liked about chart 1 was that both of these planets aspected the MC.

By the way, let me pay you a personal compliment publicly. I have read many of your posts here and on a certain other forum, and I must say that I really like your enthusiasm about astrology (witnessed by your numerous posts as well as staying in the discussion to the bitter end when it seems like something good can still come out of it) as well as your cutting straight to the issue when embroiled in arguments. (ie. staying logical, instead of emotionally swayed) These are qualities that I admire and you have them in spades. Good job.

Thanks James! That means a lot!

Hi Paul, I think chart 1 was chosen so many times because the other two just didnt have the criteria we would look for. I think that made the task much easier than it could have been. But, I agree, different methods and techniques and hybrids thereof seem to prove they have merit when completely different approaches achieve good outcomes. Often, the simplest observations are key and always the closest aspects are the most informative imo.

deb quote "- the idea is to keep the focus on traditional techniques"

great idea.. what i find especially interesting is how some of the features on these 'trad' charts are essentially dumb notes that almost no one comments on... part of fortune - who commented on it? the nodes? almost no one... tripicities? face and etc etc??? the fact is either folks are too busy, or are relying heavily on certain parts of these trad charts and largely ignoring other parts.. that is something i find especially interesting.. it is hard for me to properly access when some posters mention so very little, but i am going on what i read..

revealing more info part way thru the process was also interesting.. some posters didn't comment until the release of this extra info. it goes back to what tom said about especially liking those who post right up front.. there answers are not based on reading others comments either..i think there is something to be said for not reading others comments before offering your astro thoughts too..

maybe we can even learn something new, lol..........

Tom wrote: S Chart No. 1 is our musician. He is jazz pianist and small group leader Dave Brubeck. His chart is pathetic. He is strongly phlegmatic, which I find surprising. Phlegmatics need direction and that often comes from a strong malefic. Maybe Saturn in his case.
Brubeck was drafted in WWII and served in Patton's 3rd Army but missed the Battle of the Bulge when he played in a Red Cross benefit. He formed his first group in I think 1952 about the time his progressed Moon hit his natal Sun.

Oh yeah!
Triplicities!
Did you notice that jazz pianist Dave Brubeck middle years ruled by Venus (AC in water sign in nocturnal chart, triplicity ruler Venus)?
So Venus triggered his musician's career.
That's another proof that better use system with Venus, Mars and Moon triplicity rulers ,versus Ptolemi's Mars,Mars, Moon.
Otherwise he would stay serving in the army military orchestra.

What about chart 3, who was a butcher before he became priest then a businessman selling cigars while being a priest and later a politically connected cardinal

PD

Yuriy wrote:

Oh yeah!
Triplicities!
Did you notice that jazz pianist Dave Brubeck middle years ruled by Venus (AC in water sign in nocturnal chart, triplicity ruler Venus)?
So Venus triggered his musician's career. That's another proof that better use system with Venus, Mars and Moon triplicity rulers ,versus Ptolemi's Mars,Mars, Moon. Otherwise he would stay serving in the army military orchestra.

Yes I thought this was an additional plus for chart 1 when Tom said he didn't start out as a musician. This is quite clear using the Dorothean triplicity ruler system with Venus ruling the second tripartite division of life.

Lilly's interpretation of Ptolemy's triplicity system (which is displayed as Ptolemy's essential dignities here on Skyscript) has Mars as day and night ruler of the water triplicity. However, this is an oversimplification of what Ptolemy actually says in the Tetrabiblos.

Ptolemy states: ,

?the fourth triplicity is left to the last planet, Mars, which is related to it through its house, Scorpio, on account of the sect and because the signs are feminine, the Moon in the night, and Venus the day are co-rulers.? (Tetrabiblos I, 18).

I am not sure how we apply this system to a tripartite division of life. Ptolemy quite possibly never used this approach anyway. However, Ptolemy's system puts focus on Mars and the Moon as joint ruler of the water triplicity in a night chart.

I think its quite significant that the Moon is in the term/bound of Venus in Chart 1. I dont know if many people picked up my earlier comment about the significance of term/bound ruler of the Moon (ASC /Sect light ruler) being in Venus in this chart using the Egyptian system. Ptolemy's system of terms seems much less revealing here with the Moon in the bound of Jupiter. Jupiter is MC ruler of the chart but in its sign of fall in Capricorn.

While I much admire Ptolemy as an astrological thinker on a practical level I dont use either his triplicity or term/bound systems.

Mark

James-M wrote:

.. what i find especially interesting is how some of the features on these 'trad' charts are essentially dumb notes that almost no one comments on... part of fortune - who commented on it? the nodes? almost no one... tripicities? face and etc etc??? the fact is either folks are too busy, or are relying heavily on certain parts of these trad charts and largely ignoring other parts.. that is something i find especially interesting.. it is hard for me to properly access when some posters mention so very little, but i am going on what i read..

I think you are being a tad hard on some of the 'trads' here. I dont know how you can state people didn't comment on the dignities. Before Tom announced the result several people did this.

First, off this kind of exercise is not just a deadly serious test of our astrological skills. Noone's astrological reputuation rests on whether they get one of these challenges right or wrong. Its meant to fun! Its really an interesting exercise to test out our own delineation skills but hopefully avoids developing into a competition with 'winners' and 'losers'. As I think Deb commented somewhere on this thread this kind of exercise also allows many of us to test out ideas we may only have studied more theoretically. Such a process is possibly even more useful when we get it 'wrong' because it can assist us to challenge preconceptions or techniques that dont seem to hold up that well in practice. Having said that hitting the bullseye is nice too!

In terms of general delineation I think many of us like to stick in an initial impression of a chart which may be more 'gut' and a little tongue in cheek at the beginning. However, you will see more detailed attempts at delineation later which do cover many of the points you raise. I think most astrologers of any type go through the process of initial 'eyeball' of a chart followed by a more analytical examination later.

who commented on it? the nodes? almost no one...

Well I did in every chart! I mentioned the Moon on the NN in Chart 1. I mentioned Mars squaring both nodes in chart 2, and I mentioned the SN/NN along the ASC/DESC axis of chart 3. I felt the NN offered mitigation to the Moon in fall in chart one. I suggested Mars squaring the nodes accentuated its prominence and power in chart 2. I felt SN on the ASC and NN on the DESC gave a possible focus on self sacrifice and a life of service.

Looking at the lots I mentioned the Lot of Fortune squaring the Moon/Mercury in Chart 1. Cor Scorpii made an interesting comment highlighting the role of the Lot of Spirit in chart 3. I am sure there were other useful comments along the way. I just tend to remember my own better!

There is always the time factor too. Usually, I focus on fixed stars, and antiscion points but I just didn't have sufficient time to do that here.

Mark