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Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:08 am
by Nixx
Tzadde wrote:
Soul doesn't have a quite clear-cut definition. I have the following approach: if it isn't body (Asc), mind (Mercury) or emotion (Moon), then it is soul (ruler of Asc along with Sun). You are not the body, neither the mind nor the emotional states. Something must deal with them all; this must be the soul.

I guess you know how death is depicted in many cultures: the soul leaving the body. This is my general understanding of the soul.
It looks like a more Christian notion than the more animistic one of Hillman?s and the archetypal astrologers.

Do you know when this conception crept into western astrology, I'm thinking of the time of Aquinas here.

Going on memory here I think the ?soul?, albeit a different thinking then, used to be linked to the Moon, this may have been in the Hellenistic period, anyone know?

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:18 am
by Tzadde
Nixx wrote:Going on memory here I think the ?soul?, albeit a different thinking then, used to be linked to the Moon, this may have been in the Hellenistic period, anyone know?
According to the old textbooks, the Sun signifies the vital energy, while the Moon signifies all the humours (the four humours, I'm sure you know them). The vital energy is what animates the body, giving life to it. The humors are more related to moods; notice how "Moon" and "mood" are alike.

Therefore, the Moon is linked to the body, along with the Asc. You know what makes people moody: the hormones. You can't separate the emotions from the body in this point of view.

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:18 am
by Nixx
Tzadde wrote:
According to the old textbooks, the Sun signifies the vital energy, while the Moon signifies all the humours (the four humours, I'm sure you know them). The vital energy is what animates the body, giving life to it. The humors are more related to moods; notice how "Moon" and "mood" are alike.

Therefore, the Moon is linked to the body, along with the Asc. You know what makes people moody: the hormones. You can't separate the emotions from the body in this point of view.
Are you going back to Valens or Dorotheus here? Galen was around 200 CE and this was his view I think.

Emotions is a funny one. You still see this emotions=moon in modern cookbooks. So I have wondered where this idea stems from. It makes no sense to me linking them to just the Moon. Both in the tradition and in some modern systems the emotion anger is linked to Mars, or shame to the Sun, or depression to Saturn, or desire to Venus, euphoria to Jupiter, etc.you could go on so eventually perhaps the majority are linked to other planets than the Moon.

Brainstorming Bundy's emotions when he was killing people you might have these emotions to the fore:

Anger, arousal, desire, ecstasy, excitement, fear, hatred, indifference, loathing, pleasure, rage, satisfaction.

If they were all Lunar, the Moon all of a sudden becomes the symbol for most of our behaviours.

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:09 am
by Tzadde
Well, I have already pointed out the affliction of Moon (moods) by Mars (you have mentioned what is Mars about) in Bundy's case.

In the old times, it was stated that Moon collects all the lights of the other planets in order to spread them on our sublunar world. That means any aspects the planets are receiving from the Moon are augmented by that Light alone. Especially in nocturnal charts.

So, what you have said might be stated as such: anger is Mars-Moon hard aspects (conjunction, opposition and square), pride (or narcissism in modern times) is Sun-Moon (where did you get shame?), depression is Saturn-Moon and so on...

You see, the Moon is actually the significator of emotions. The behaviour is signified by Mercury, as significator of manners (Lilly's third volume of Christian Astrology). The behaviour is not dictated by emotions (unless you refuse to think for yourself), but by mind.
Nixx wrote:Brainstorming Bundy's emotions when he was killing people you might have these emotions to the fore:

Anger, arousal, desire, ecstasy, excitement, fear, hatred, indifference, loathing, pleasure, rage, satisfaction.
You contemplate this sort of stuff, aren't you? When I have delineated the Bundy's chart, I didn't pay that much attention to emotions. If you read it again, you'll see I have said something else. I didn't brainstorm when I delineated his chart. I analyzed so it can be understood from a traditional viewpoint, but you hijacked the topic to psychology.

Again, why do you never delineate a chart, if you are so passionate about psychological astrology?

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:48 am
by johannes susato
Nixx wrote:3/- Yes, but what we need to do here is encapsulated in Robert Hand's thoughts:
??If you were to study the medieval texts without some grounding in contemporary, you?d practise astrology as it was practised centuries ago, and that is not appropriate?this is not the middle Ages??.
WE need to do here, what we call astrology - Tom has reminded of this tread's topic repeatedly - and not what you want us to do here.

To understand a technique means to study, to understand and to try it. This step is essential before judging it and to decide if and how to make use of it in our time.
I wonder if Robert Hand has really melted "to study" and "to practise" together in this wrong way as you quote him. [By the way it is not really academic to quote without giving the source completely.]

Nixx, if you really are
Nixx wrote:"[...] interested here in:
a/ How multiple planets were delineated pre 1700.
b/ How these various schemas are applicable to Bundys chart."
you should stop discuss?ng off-topic topics in this length and broadness here in this thread.

Would it not be much more generative if you allowed your thaughts, annotations and critique an own topic/thread?

Johannes

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:37 am
by johannes susato
I think it would be fine to have this astrological thread here with but short non-astrological annotations together with references to a parallel-thread where this - inevitable and necessary - critique is detailed.

Johannes

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:48 am
by johannes susato
But hopefully here on the Traditional (& Ancient) Techniques Forum and not far off and concealed on the Philosophy Forum . . .

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:48 am
by Paul
Nixx wrote: 4/ I?m interested here in :
a/ How multiple planets were delineated pre 1700.
b/ How these various schemas are applicable to Bundys chart. Tzadde?s ?soul? needs defining , not least as it was on the face of it quite central to his./her delineation, as it always does when people throw this nebulous concept into the semantics.

You and your endemic tangents, Gemini?
My tangents?

If you're interested in these points one would be forgiven for not recognising that from your posts. Maybe it's better we return to the traditional model again and drop the psycho-babble for the moment. It might be interesting to start a thread on the Nativities and General astrology forum to discuss the psychological viewpoint.

Here we're not aiming to do that. So if you're keen to learn the traditional approach it's probably better to not engage in the psychological approaches just now.

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:49 pm
by Nixx
So, what you have said might be stated as such: anger is Mars-Moon hard aspects (conjunction, opposition and square), pride (or narcissism in modern times) is Sun-Moon (where did you get shame?), depression is Saturn-Moon and so on...
Shame is not something we are born with, it is a learnt emotion. In Psychological Astrology the Moon is compared to the Id and the Sun the Ego. (Freudian meaning). Shame is the 'consciousness of something dishonourable' which is related to what our familial-social environment imposes upon us, i.e. the child being told to do this not that, as the this is unacceptable. So it's not a more unconscious emotion, 'beneath' the Ego.

In this model Shame would be delineated in reference to Jupiter and Saturn more directly, as these two planets talk about the sub-cultural milieu and the social mores the child encounters.

You see, the Moon is actually the significator of emotions. The behaviour is signified by Mercury, as significator of manners (Lilly's third volume of Christian Astrology). The behaviour is not dictated by emotions (unless you refuse to think for yourself), but by mind.

I don't follow your thinking or language here. I would suggest more of our behaviour, including thinking, is driven by emotions than something like 'robotic thought'. (Someone with the lights in Aquarius may beg to differ) :,
You contemplate this sort of stuff, aren't you? When I have delineated the Bundy's chart, I didn't pay that much attention to emotions. If you read it again, you'll see I have said something else. I didn't brainstorm when I delineated his chart. I analyzed so it can be understood from a traditional viewpoint, but you hijacked the topic to psychology.
I read your delineation as more of a psychological profile, albeit through the lens of traditional astrology, than you may have done. Traditional delineations seem to be largely, if not primarily, focused on psychology from what I can see. As soon as you mention what someone does with their life, or talk about mind, mood, etc this is psychology. For example, ''deceitful father figure'', ''looking a bit childish in other people's eyes''. I also would not suggest you were more focused on his overt than covert behaviour. It's true I am comparing this in my mind to Psychological theory, but then this is somewhat inevitable today, particularly if you are more familiar with this field.

Whether or not this vitalistic soul ought to be understood as overt or covert behaviour is an interesting one, bit of both presumably. Although if it is immaterial we may have a problem in even thinking about this coherently.

Again, why do you never delineate a chart, if you are so passionate about psychological astrology? [
Because that would be bad manners here.

By and large the aim for astrologers when looking at traditional techniques, previously unknown to them, (and this applies to those who are more lock, stock and barrel smitten by older schemas as well), is to seperate the wheat form the chaff and see which of these ideas has a utility today. I do the same with any astrological material regardless as to when it was produced, i.e. is this relevant to my life today. So my interest in say 'generosity', 'almuten figuris' , just a couple of older conceptions/techniques you happened to mention, is firstly understanding the rationale behind them and then applying this to my 'working' schema to see if they can be integrated, made useful or not as the case may be. Or even if they threaten the backbone of the schema, as you may know this has happened in some cases and folks then re-invent their approach using 'older' modelling tools. Robert Hand is perhaps the most high profile, or respected chap to have attended to this. He realises the need to also use Psychological Theory, to the extent he is able, to bring the Horoscope alive, or enable it to make sense, to the modern world.

Pretty standard attitude, if not bordering on common sense, thus your question could be construed as a strange one. ? I am conscious of the possibility we may have a bit of a language barrier here which may not be helping.

Robert Zoller summaries this reality succinctly on his site, a la Mr Hand:

6.Can Medieval Astrology be used in conjunction with Psychological Astrology?
??Yes, there is no conflict. They complement each other. This is because Medieval Astrology, while it does have something to say about the native's character, has nothing to compare with the sophisticated theories of personality and psychological development which are features of contemporary psychological astrology. Medieval Astrology's character analysis, while it offers penetrating insights, is crude, practical and ad hoc.??

http://new-library.com/zoller/faq/#6

I wonder if Robert Hand has really melted "to study" and "to practise" together in this wrong way as you quote him. [By the way it is not really academic to quote without giving the source completely.]
It is a bit cobbled here
.http://www.astrologyguild.com/2011/09/0 ... -rob-hand/

He has said much the same elsewhere, the 'Post Modern' talk recently discussed here, I forget if this is at CURA or Astrodienst or both.
I think it would be fine to have this astrological thread here with but short non-astrological annotations together with references to a parallel-thread where this - inevitable and necessary - critique is detailed.
Because we can be confident another person has exactly, or almost, the same chart as Bundy and not had a life resembling his, overtly anyway, it is hard to and maybe not that sensible to ignore data which has found a relationship between abuse and psychopathy, and discussed why this is. Assuming we want to, or think a Horoscope can, get to the bottom of his ''4th house''.

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:28 pm
by johannes susato
Nixx wrote:
Johannes Susato wrote:I wonder if Robert Hand has really melted "to study" and "to practise" together in this wrong way as you quote him. [By the way it is not really academic to quote without giving the source completely.]
It is a bit cobbled here
http://www.astrologyguild.com/2011/09/0 ... -rob-hand/
Thanks for the link, it's uncobbled now and should work.
You'll find the quotation near the end under:
"Teaching dignities?we at the CAAE felt it was an important inclusion to our curriculum?"

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:20 pm
by Tom
WE need to do here, what we call astrology - Tom has reminded of this tread's topic repeatedly - and not what you want us to do here.
Precisely. Sorry I've been AWOL a bit; I'm on the road again. This thread has a topic; let's stick to it, and I'm going to delete future posts that use it for an excuse to babble on about other things.

I hope to be able to start a delineation tonight. For now, I see Mars and Jupiter as the most significant planets in the 4th as they rule all the planets involved and are in mutual reception. Also, and this may have been mentioned or maybe I did. I can't go through everything right now, Jupiter is not only posited in the 4th or influences it if you prefer, but rules the 12th by exaltation and 8th by domicile, the other two houses in Morin's grand trine of houses that involve the 4th.


Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:49 pm
by Tzadde
I might be slightly off-topic (because it isn't about multiple planets in one House, but about Bundy's chart), hope I'm excused for that, because this one is really interesting, coming from Cardan:
16. If Jupiter and the Moon in any nativity shall be very weak and afflicted though other positions seem never so premising (typo?), yet the native shall be exceedingly unhappy.

31. The Moon with the Dragon's Tail in a nativity gives suspicion of the mother's honesty and hints that the child is none of the reputed father's begetting; however, it will prove ill-mannered and for the most part unfortunate.
Source: Anima Astrologiae or The Astrologer's Guide, pages 87 and 89.