Therese wrote:

I do question Konrad's rulership system, but I find it so confusing that I'd have no idea how to refute it.

This one made me laugh, Therese!

The normal sidereal rulers work fine for me.

Well, it could be said that both you and Konrad are creating quite some confusion on Skyscript by your delicate balancing acts between Sidereal and Tropical. Interestingly, each of you is doing it in what could be said to be diametrically opposite ways... (There is certainly nothing wrong with exploring unorthodox paths!)

However, I do grant you, Therese, that you are consequent in assigning Sidereal rulers to Sidereal signs. Albeit the latter are at once Tropical in your scheme, in a sense.

Likewise, Konrad could consider to regard the Sidereal signs as being Tropical at the same time... (with some stretch of the imagination). Or vice versa, maybe...

Frederica, Empress of Germany

Konrad wrote:

Ok, we have the Sun in his joy in the 9th conjoined his cazimi lord, Jupiter.

If we resort to standard sidereal rulerships, wouldn?t it be significant that ascendant lord Jupiter is with the Sun, though then Jupiter isn?t cazimi lord? This looks like rather a toss-up if we are looking for a comparison: cazimi lord or ascendant lord?

The Sun is bodyguarded by Mars in detriment in the 7th house. For me, this is apt for this native. The planet providing for her eminence is in the 7th sign of marriage and a sign associated with living abroad.

I?m beginning to see the problem astrologers have in reaching agreements about symbolism. I?ve understood the 12th as living abroad, and the 12th lord Saturn is with the 7th lord, Mercury. (I?m going with Jyotish symbolism here.)

She married a foreign prince and lived abroad where she was always known as Die Engl?nderin (the Englishwoman).

With standard symbolism the 12th lord Saturn with 7th lord Mercury disposited by Mars in the 7th would also describe her foreign marriage and residence. Poor girl! There's no astrological way she would have a long lasting fortunate marriage. So different from her parents.

The state of Mars is also telling, with him in detriment, and as ASC lord, it is a testimony of living abroad. One last thing is that a planet in detriment will eventually ruin its significations or they will fade away; as was stated, her husband died 3 months after gaining the throne.

Mars in 7th would certainly describe the loss of a husband. Mars in (traditional sidereal) Virgo is poorly placed, but not as bad as if it were in detriment. A Jyotish technique that?s used is that Mars is in a mansion of the Sun which rules the 6th house where sits Ketu, planet of loss and sacrifice.

Then Mars is disposited by Mercury who is conjoined to 12th lord Saturn. So there is a repeated 7th-12th connection in the chart. I suppose that the Lot of Fortune in the 12th would show status in foreign country, at least in Jyotish. It is supposed to be "bad karma" if one has to live away from the homeland and family.

Telling here, is the fact that Mars is in mutual reception with Venus (Venus in Mars' exaltation, Mars in Venus' sign), so she did not lose her position completely as would be expected from a malefic out-of-sect, in detriment and acting as spearbearer. Venus was there to protect her in this context.

Konrad, I don't have time or energy to work on more of these royal charts. I'd want a lot more biographical information to make it worthwhile. So I'll wait to see what you say about the Sun-Moon-Asc/Jupiter-MC charts. Only one chart has an extensive biography.

Michael Sternbach wrote:Konrad,

If the Tropical domiciles works better for you than the Sidereal domiciles, couldn't it be because the Tropical signs work better to begin with? I'm not sure how you would like to peel off one from the other, anyway. Just a thought...

No, because looking at ASC and planets in late degrees Tropically, which are then early degrees of the same sign Sidereally is most illuminating. There are a few amongst Victoria and her children's charts here. Also is the point of the order of the time-lords via directing the Hyleg, and also the length of life itself using the bound lord of the Hyleg as the giver of years; all function better in the Sidereal measurement. There is also the positions of the dodekatemoira. So, no Tropical signs don't work better for me at least.

Hey Therese,

thanks for your point of view. I just want to say that have nowehere near delineated these charts fully, I merely took one technique to highlight one factor of their lives and saw what came up. Eminence is basically the number of people they influence and how, and I'd say spearbearing in these charts works out pretty well. In my opinion, the dispositorships, detriments and falls I outlined add another subtle layer to the interpretation too.

I do have the charts on some natives here, though not yet finished in their lives, where spearbearing is non-descript. I am wondering if this is because of other factors in the chart, or that spearbearing is somehow linked to ancestral eminence, or eminence found initially achieved without the native's own effort. I guess more study is required.

The main point was though that family background is vital. Even those with uneminent charts still were married into powerful families or had the benefits merely being the child of royalty would bring. The male with the lowest eminence was still a peer and the Grandmaster of a Masonic lodge. I think this sort of thing should always be kept in mind when delineating other topics too.

Konrad wrote:

I just want to say that [I?] have nowehere near delineated these charts fully...

I also took only a few factors mentioned in the brief notes on each chart. Now an experiment we could do is to take a single chart with a comprehensive biography and analyze the chart more fully.

I also want to review spear bearing in Robert Schmidt's Definitions and Foundations. I hadn't really worked with that technique before, but in Jyotish it's considered a protection for a planet if planets are on either side of that planet's sign. This seems to be related to the original Hellenistic concept of spear bearing.

The main point was though that family background is vital. Even those with uneminent charts still were married into powerful families or had the benefits merely being the child of royalty would bring. The male with the lowest eminence was still a peer and the Grandmaster of a Masonic lodge. I think this sort of thing should always be kept in mind when delineating other topics too.

It would be interesting to compare the charts of ordinary people without family status with those of royalty. Yes, family background should be clearly shown in a chart. Also (as far as rulerships go) wouldn't it be helpful to compare the charts of say S.I.D.S. charts with those who have had fortunate lives?

The ascendant lord would be key here, so you could test your system of rulerships. I can post several S.I.D.S charts after we're through with the three charts I posted. (As time allows I'll look at the other royal charts, but I find that my mind has tired easily in the last few years, so my concentration time is limited.)

Anyway, reading your delineations of the royal charts has been a helpful refresher on eminence and spear bearing, so I thank you for that. Now I want to hit the books for more details, especially as to orbs.

Hoping you'll have time to comment on the three charts I posted, or at least the one with the extensive biography. And how would you distinguish the Mensan chart from Victoria's as to eminence? Unfortunately we have no details as to the life of the owner of the Mensan chart. It's common here in the U.S. for Mensan members to more or less drift through life because they are so easily bored with normal routine and jobs.

Therese

Therese Hamilton wrote:I also want to review spear bearing in Robert Schmidt's Definitions and Foundations. I hadn't really worked with that technique before, but in Jyotish it's considered a protection for a planet if planets are on either side of that planet's sign. This seems to be related to the original Hellenistic concept of spear bearing.

Yeah, that sounds about right, but you have to remember that a planet could be enclosed by degree or by sign, at least in the Medieval texts, I can't remember if that is the case in the Hellenistic texts too.

It would be interesting to compare the charts of ordinary people without family status with those of royalty. Yes, family background should be clearly shown in a chart. Also (as far as rulerships go) wouldn't it be helpful to compare the charts of say S.I.D.S. charts with those who have had fortunate lives?

No, I am saying that family background is not found in the chart. If you have the son of a prince and a pauper with eactly the same chart, they will have different lives because of what they started with.

The ascendant lord would be key here, so you could test your system of rulerships. I can post several S.I.D.S charts after we're through with the three charts I posted. (As time allows I'll look at the other royal charts, but I find that my mind has tired easily in the last few years, so my concentration time is limited.)

What are SIDS?

Hoping you'll have time to comment on the three charts I posted, or at least the one with the extensive biography. And how would you distinguish the Mensan chart from Victoria's as to eminence? Unfortunately we have no details as to the life of the owner of the Mensan chart. It's common here in the U.S. for Mensan members to more or less drift through life because they are so easily bored with normal routine and jobs.

Probably not for a little while, I fractured my hand yesterday, so typing is troublesome. I would distinguish the charts firstly through their families then delineate as normal. A person can be wealthy and/or famous but have little eminence.

Konrad wrote:

Yeah, that sounds about right [regarding spear bearing], but you have to remember that a planet could be enclosed by degree or by sign, at least in the Medieval texts, I can't remember if that is the case in the Hellenistic texts too.

Oh yes, Enclosure. That is much more likely than spear bearing as a Jyotish transfer.

No, I am saying that family background is not found in the chart.

Actually, it might be seen in the chart as a fortunate birth related to the 4th house. But we'd need another modifier such as the navamsa and other varga charts or the western use of midpoints. Long years of study have convinced me that the natal chart alone is simply not enough to distinguish one chart from another.

What are SIDS?

Sudden Infant Death Syndrome. The child generally dies within a few weeks or months of birth. Surely, a great way to test the ascendant lord, and aspects to the ascendant!

I fractured my hand yesterday, so typing is troublesome. I would distinguish the charts firstly through their families then delineate as normal. A person can be wealthy and/or famous but have little eminence.

I see a need to clearly define eminence. Part of the problem with astrological interpretation is that terms aren't clearly defined, and different astrologers will attach different definitions to the same term. For example, I had assumed eminence to be any sort of fame in any area, such as the president of a corporation would have eminence.

My blessings for a quick recovery for your hand. Then I won't expect a reply on this thread for awhile. I'll check your chart for yesterday's aspects, and the Ennead (40 day chart). I always like to check out body related accidents like this. Left or right hand? (Just one word to type!)

Therese

Yes, sorry about your hand, Konrad -- I hope it heals soon.

A few comments on mixed topics:

Doryphory or spear-bearing survives in Indian astrology as durudhar?[-yoga], with variants (from the same Greek word), defined as planets other than the Sun (and the nodes) occupying the 2nd and 12th from the Moon.

I agree that doryphories can be illuminating with regard to social standing, though more so if combined with other factors, such as the triplicity rulers of the sect luminary. In my experience these work very well with standard sidereal rulerships.

For those really interested in doryphories and able to read German, the book to get is Susanne Denningmann's Die astrologische Lehre der Doryphorie: Eine soziomorphe Metapher in der antiken Planetenastrologie.

Therese Hamilton wrote:Sudden Infant Death Syndrome. The child generally dies within a few weeks or months of birth. Surely, a great way to test the ascendant lord, and aspects to the ascendant!

This would correspond to the second class of nativities (with respect to survival/rearing) as discussed by Abu Bakr and others. The ascendant figures in these definitions, but so do the luminaries, their triplicity rulers, angular malefics or benefics, etc.

Therese Hamilton wrote:Actually, it might be seen in the chart as a fortunate birth related to the 4th house. But we'd need another modifier such as the navamsa and other varga charts or the western use of midpoints. Long years of study have convinced me that the natal chart alone is simply not enough to distinguish one chart from another.

Well since you advocate testing methods, you could test your ideas on the charts I posted, all came from the most privileged family in the UK in their day, so all would surely have a fortunate family in their charts.

Sudden Infant Death Syndrome. The child generally dies within a few weeks or months of birth. Surely, a great way to test the ascendant lord, and aspects to the ascendant!

Right, I figured as much, but wanted to make sure. As Martin has said, the ASC lord is not the only consideration in the Western tradition.

I see a need to clearly define eminence. Part of the problem with astrological interpretation is that terms aren't clearly defined, and different astrologers will attach different definitions to the same term. For example, I had assumed eminence to be any sort of fame in any area, such as the president of a corporation would have eminence.

I see eminence as power and influence, I don't think I am alone here. You have many instances of vast fame, but relatively little power, especially with the rise of celebrity culture in our times. The president of a corporation is not necessarily famous, nor is the aide to the Prime Minister, but they would wield some level of power regardless. The secret service and other clandestine organisations come to mind as some with eminence but relatively little fame. Same with the heads of massive crime organisations.

My blessings for a quick recovery for your hand. Then I won't expect a reply on this thread for awhile. I'll check your chart for yesterday's aspects, and the Ennead (40 day chart). I always like to check out body related accidents like this. Left or right hand? (Just one word to type!

Well thanks, to you and Martin, I can still type with my left hand, it is just slow going. It is not a serious injury anyway. I was expecting something of the sort this year, but not for another couple of weeks. If you look at my chart I have Mars overcoming the Moon, with the aspect repeating in the Revolution of this year and the Moon handing over to Mars' sign in the revolution via profections.

Martin wrote:

For those really interested in doryphories and able to read German, the book to get is Susanne Denningmann's Die astrologische Lehre der Doryphorie: Eine soziomorphe Metapher in der antiken Planetenastrologie.

I cannot read German, but am checking Robert Schmidt's Definitions and Foundations (The Golden Hind Press, 2009), and see that he has an excellent and comprehensive 18 page discussion of doryphories. He discusses the texts of different authors and the ambiguities between the texts before reaching his own conclusion. I'm studying this section now, and will be comparing it to the quotes posted by Konrad.

Schmidt's book is really a "must have" for students of Hellenistic astrology. It can probably be ordered only from the Project Hindsight web site, and is probably much more expensive than when it was initially released in 2009. The book was supposed to be the second in a 30 volume series, but I don't believe another volume has been released. A value cannot be placed on Schmidt's exhaustive commentary on Hellenistic principles in this volume.

Konrad wrote:

Well since you advocate testing methods, you could test your ideas on the charts I posted, all came from the most privileged family in the UK in their day, so all would surely have a fortunate family in their charts.

This is too good a challenge to pass up if I can find the time. I'll have to re-cast the charts with the navamsas.

Konrad wrote:Well thanks, to you and Martin, I can still type with my left hand, it is just slow going. It is not a serious injury anyway. I was expecting something of the sort this year, but not for another couple of weeks. If you look at my chart I have Mars overcoming the Moon, with the aspect repeating in the Revolution of this year and the Moon handing over to Mars' sign in the revolution via profections.

When you say the aspect is repeating in the current revolution, are you using a tropical definition of the year?