Skyscript Astrology Forum

Posted: **Sat May 04, 2019 3:46 pm**

the coronation of the king was today.. this chart was apparently set by astrologers as an auspicious time for his coronation... i am curious how they arrive at these auspicious times and how they perceive this chart as auspicious! it doesn't look all that auspicious to me!!!

here is his natal chart..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vajiralongkorn

doing an overlap of his chart you can see how the transits for this event connect directly to his chart... i do associate a strong saturn transit to greater responsibility as we see here.. some of the other transits baffle me - new moon - 10 degrees prior to a new moon - is confusing to understand in context of auspicious..same deal sun opp mars.. mars would appear to be a malefic in this chart as ruler of 5/12.. venus opp moon - okay, i could see that as auspicious sort of.. what is interesting is the mars-jupiter opposition which is also found in his rasi chart.. perhaps having this same config in the coronation chart is considered an auspicious set up.. that is possible, although on balance that aspect is one i wouldn't consider auspicious... it is all so very interesting!

the new moon approaching the 5th house jupiter, which is the ruler of the ascendant is the obvious auspicious tie in.. perhaps it is mostly based on this.. that makes some sense if you think that the position of the sun and moon have to be considered extremely important for any chart... also interesting to me is rahu conjunct the ascendant by transit.. i would associate this with fortuitous.. thoughts anyone??

here is the coronation navamsha for anyone that wants to take a quick look.. i wonder how much the courts astrologers factor this in when they are electing a time for the coronation??

Posted: **Sat May 04, 2019 6:41 pm**

When I was in Thailand a number of years ago, the old king was doing a slow death. He was extremely popular and was an American citizen—he was born in Cambridge ma because his dad-the grandfather of the current king was going to medical school. The late king who died several years ago never expected to be King. New king not popular at all Amy

Posted: **Sat May 04, 2019 9:30 pm**

thanks amy.. that's interesting...taking your word for it here, is there any reason why the new king is not popular?

Posted: **Sun May 05, 2019 1:29 am**

james_m wrote:the coronation of the king was today.. this chart was apparently set by astrologers as an auspicious time for his coronation... i am curious how they arrive at these auspicious times and how they perceive this chart as auspicious! it doesn't look all that auspicious to me!!!

here is his natal chart..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vajiralongkorn

doing an overlap of his chart you can see how the transits for this event connect directly to his chart... i do associate a strong saturn transit to greater responsibility as we see here.. some of the other transits baffle me - new moon - 10 degrees prior to a new moon - is confusing to understand in context of auspicious..same deal sun opp mars.. mars would appear to be a malefic in this chart as ruler of 5/12.. venus opp moon - okay, i could see that as auspicious sort of.. what is interesting is the mars-jupiter opposition which is also found in his rasi chart.. perhaps having this same config in the coronation chart is considered an auspicious set up.. that is possible, although on balance that aspect is one i wouldn't consider auspicious... it is all so very interesting!

the new moon approaching the 5th house jupiter, which is the ruler of the ascendant is the obvious auspicious tie in.. perhaps it is mostly based on this.. that makes some sense if you think that the position of the sun and moon have to be considered extremely important for any chart... also interesting to me is rahu conjunct the ascendant by transit.. i would associate this with fortuitous.. thoughts anyone??

here is the coronation navamsha for anyone that wants to take a quick look.. i wonder how much the courts astrologers factor this in when they are electing a time for the coronation??

James: I was going into lurking mode... you just knew I had to look

I ask no forgiveness stepping on a divine king's toes to whatever I may say below.

whole sign houses BTW...
I agree this is a disastrous muhurta (election). There is so much wrong it might be better to look at what seems right about it; some wrong about the right too.

Gemini is a good ascendant as the only functional malefics are the Moon's Nodes.

Exalted Sun in the eleventh house exactly conjunct the Equal Bhava Madhya (EBM) of the eleventh and fifth houses.
This seems pretty good at first glance but its all spoiled because Mars, dispositer of the Sun and Moon and Mercury is extremely weak in old age and badly placed in the twelfth house. A planet can never be stronger than its dispositer unless strongly aspected by a benefic and this is not the case here. A king with a weak Sun is no king at all.

Venus is the exalted ruler of the auspicious fifth house and closely aspects the EBM of the tenth and fourth houses. This is the best planet in the horoscope. Venus just manages to be strong enough to escape affliction from the T-square from the Rahy/Ketu axis. Rahu is close enough to that ascendant to give easy money and enormous drive to obtain a worldly benefit, but usually, Rahu's gains are short-lived.
These two influences indicate a very shallow and materially focused monarch that will lie and manipulate through his eye teeth to get what he wants. This is a king that is only concerned about personal pleasure during his reign as Venus is the only strong planet with no restrictions on it by the other Grahas.

What's wrong...
Tithi: Amavasya (new Moon), Day 15 of the Waning Moon is Weak and not favorable; the Lunar + the Solar day is also unfortunate.

Jupiter the planet of the kings' honor is Gandhanta and in the eighth house and also in the eighth house from the Moon, Sun and Mercury.

The Rahu Ketu axis is afflicting the bhukti lord Saturn and though a bit wide is afflicting the asc/desc axis. Ninth Lord Saturn is afflicted so this king cares nothing for dharma. The people will suffer on account of him and they will grow to hate him.

4 planets are in late or early degrees and two of them are in dusthanas. Mars and Jupiter are in mutual aspect as functional benefics but they are both so weak that it hardly helps to strengthen them.

Jupiter's trine to weak Mercury is again so weak that it hardly registers.

Mars as a natural malefic is aspecting the inauspicious Saturn/Ketu conjunction in the seventh house from the twelfth house of losses. Said above but I will say it again, his people will loathe him in the end.
His natal chart decries a man that does not lead a virtuous life.

It's almost like the court astrologer(s) chose this muhurta to guarantee his failure. They had over two years to select a good muhurta. Wait till transiting retrograding Jupiter crosses the natal 28th degree of Scorpio in the coming weeks and back later after going direct.

Just my take... all hate mail and other responses will be ignored. Some may think he's a god by virtue of being coronated the Thai king, but I do not.

Posted: **Sun May 05, 2019 7:54 pm**

hi aj,

thanks for taking the time to articulate all this!! i obviously don't understand the concept of malefics, or functional malefics with your comment on gemini ascendant having no functional malefics... seems like saturn would be an obvious one, so what am i missing? obviously the rahu-ketu as you mention qualifies too, but why not saturn??

as for the placement of jupiter, is there no value in the trine between venus and jupiter here? is that solely on the fact jupiter is on the last degree essentially? is it possible this concept of the first and last degrees are jaimini, or is that all parashara?

sounds like the guy is not popular according to yours and amys comments.. perhaps the moon-saturn conjunction high up in his chart and ruling the 8th doesn't help any either... i don't know much about him.. has he married a few times? his relationship sphere looks very unstable with uranus in the 7th square to the moon-saturn in the 10th.. the mars-venus square with both rule the 12/6 and 11/5 axis - doesn't really bode well in any of those depts. thanks having these 2 planets running at cross purposes with one another by aspect.. but - this is probably mostly all western astrology talking here.. venus has the upper hand in all of it.. jupiter - ruler of the ascendant is in a funny position, being ruled by mars, but ultimately lording it over venus... the t square speaks of this conflict and not being able to resolve it in any way.. so, the guy is a self centered playboy - jupiter in aries in the 5th... thanks..

Posted: **Mon May 06, 2019 12:28 pm**

Thanks for sharing

Posted: **Mon May 06, 2019 2:26 pm**

james_m wrote:hi aj,

thanks for taking the time to articulate all this!! i obviously don't understand the concept of malefics, or functional malefics with your comment on gemini ascendant having no functional malefics... seems like saturn would be an obvious one, so what am i missing? obviously the rahu-ketu as you mention qualifies too, but why/. not saturn??

Disclaimer: Not everyone practicing Parashari would agree on what I am going to say. Maybe very few now that I think about it. You read Light on Life right? Remember the story of Shiva's curse on astrologers?... That applies to everything in astrology east or west.

I am really just still guffawed that this time was chosen for his coronation. Really good murhutas (elections) are few and far between, generally just 5-7 per year, but it's like I said before that they were setting him up for failure with this one.

Your query about FB's (functional benefics).
Taking Sa as an example in this chart... Saturn rules the eighth and ninth, the eighth house Capricorn is Saturns "dependent sign" and doesn't count for functional malefic status. Aquarius is Saturn's MT house, or primary rulership is the auspicious ninth house so this counts Saturn in as a functional benefic for this chart. Just because Saturn is a "functional malefic" don't make the mistake that Saturn as a natural malefic suddenly is like a leopard that lost his spots! Saturn is still a natural malefic, it just has more mixed energy of positive and negative. This is a subtle and often overlooked distinction. Also hard to get right.
The same principle applies to Mars and Venus as well.

as for the placement of jupiter, is there no value in the trine between venus and jupiter here? is that solely on the fact jupiter is on the last degree essentially? is it possible this concept of the first and last degrees are jaimini, or is that all parashara?
I use Parahara, I don't really know about Jaimini as I have never used it in practice. For me close out of sign aspects count, I use tight orbs, 5 degrees or less. House or wide aspects beyond five degrees are only "in sign." Jupiter in this chart is so weak in late degrees (Gandhanta again) even though closely aspected by weak Mars in late degrees doesn't add any strength to Ju either and being out of orb to Ve the aspect doesn't even register.

sounds like the guy is not popular according to yours and amys comments.. perhaps the moon-saturn conjunction high up in his chart and ruling the 8th doesn't help any either... i don't know much about him.. has he married a few times? his relationship sphere looks very unstable with uranus in the 7th square to the moon-saturn in the 10th.. the mars-venus square with both rule the 12/6 and 11/5 axis - doesn't really bode well in any of those depts. thanks having these 2 planets running at cross purposes with one another by aspect.. but - this is probably mostly all western astrology talking here.. venus has the upper hand in all of it.. jupiter - ruler of the ascendant is in a funny position, being ruled by mars, but ultimately lording it over venus... the t square speaks of this conflict and not being able to resolve it in any way.. so, the guy is a self centered playboy - jupiter in aries in the 5th... thanks..
If I find time I will do a quick delineation of his natal chart from my perspective. No promises though

Posted: **Mon May 06, 2019 5:53 pm**

hi aj,

yes - i did read light on life and i am waiting to receive a 2nd hand copy of light on relationships too, by the same authors.. i don't remember shivas curse, but i can imagine what it is..

perhaps the time chosen is based off bhuddism, as opposed to indian astrology.. after all, thailand is mostly bhuddist... i imagine they have a different system and sense of priority then western or indian astrology.. thus, the confusion on our part!!!

regarding my question on fb's - okay..thanks for explaining all that and the relativity of it.. this brings up a 2nd question - since all the planets except sun and moon rule 2 houses, how is it decided which one is more relevant then the other?? - i am going to guess and this is a male chauvinistic thing too - all the fire-air signs are given priority over the earth-water signs.. is that it?? hopefully i am wrong! ultimately a more nuanced viewpoint is required - got it..

thanks for your overview on the late degree concept - gandhanta - and etc. etc.. - thanks for reiterating this along with your personal approach to aspects... it is interesting as i mentioned earlier - how their is a mars-jupiter opposition in his rasi chart and it is repeated here in the coronation chart.. i find that interesting.. again, this concept of gandhanta reminds me a lot of horary ideology where the first and last degrees suggest something that would be interpreted very differently in natal astrology.. i can't help but think some of these ideas got lost in translation..

again this brings up the concept of astrologers today picking and choosing what they will use.. i realize this doesn't make for a unified and consistent approach! this is one of the reasons i continue to try to make predictions off the data and to understand how i get things wrong!! for example - below is a biwheel of the kings chart on the inside with solar arc directions on the outside... it is fairly easy to see that the next 4 years will bring some powerful solar arc directions to the fore.. how it unfolds is something we can watch in real time..

perhaps the first connection to look at here is the solar arc sun conjunct natal saturn.. this is a very fitting symbolic tie for the time of the coronation here.. also - sa saturn is 45 midheaven - another symbolic combo that highlights his change of status and professional role.. 2nd is the mars-jupiter opposition enclosing the asc-desc axis.. 25 mars and 29 jupiter gives 27 fixed as the midpoint...

in 2 years time, the sa nodal axis hits the natal midheaven axis.. this is about the same time that sa mars hits natal ascendant.. converse sa mercury will also hit the midheaven in 2 years time.. so, in 2 years time there will be greater clarity on his position as the new king, then there might be at present.. sa pluto hits the midheaven in 4 years. 4 1/2 years out sa midheaven hits natal saturn...

solar arc directions are not a stand alone predictive tool, but i have found the data very useful in getting a feel for the future possibilities on a chart..

most of the predictive indian astrology i have read to date seems to fall onto dasas.. i imagine solar returns and transits are used as well, but i have no idea if solar arc directions are... i would be curious...

Posted: **Mon May 06, 2019 8:55 pm**

Lord Shivas curse... There are actually quite a few folktales about how some of the gods and goddesses of Hinduism cursed astrologers. The one in LoLife is just one but Lord Shiva tested all of the astrologers one day to see if they were accurate in their predictions. The astrologers tested all did well, too well in fact and this angered Shiva because if they were too accurate this interfered with free will and even perhaps his divine will so he cursed all astrologers that they would never agree with one another.
Sounds eerily correct to me... LOL

james_m wrote: perhaps the time chosen is based off bhuddism, as opposed to indian astrology.. after all, thailand is mostly bhuddist... i imagine they have a different system and sense of priority then western or indian astrology.. thus, the confusion on our part!!!

Good point. There are many systems of astrology. Years ago I learned a Burmese system of astrology called the "little key" and though it uses the birth date and the Burmese calendar, the system is a numerological one combined with astrological symbolism. Its fast and admiringly accurate in a gerneral sense. Its use and development were mostly from the monks and street fortunetellers rather than the court though.
Some systems of Tibetan astrology are similar but there is an astronomically based system as well.

I am aquainted with one Thai astrologer that uses basically Indian astrology that is just tuned to the Thai calendar. Not saying I know this is the norm but most Thai astrologers are probabaly similar at this level.

Thai astrologers might use omens (nimitta) more than the modern Indian astrologer too. This might have influenced the choice for the particular muhurta. Usually, in the Indian classics, the omen must coincide the implication of the Grahas for the time being considered, but not always. Maybe the pigeons around the royal palace poop less during these three days of the year... the point is who can really know unless we can get the royal soothsayers on the phone.

At least from my system, this was a terrible election to be crowned a monarch.

I can imagine the scene... the court astrologer furrows his brows and rustles through all of the mysterious and awe-inspiring calculations and charts that have been so onerously prepared as they are giving the reading in the royal presence; slowly and solemnly reads the droppings of his great astrological efforts... Oh wait, I'm confusing that with a western reading I had many years ago.

James: I will try to get to your other questions, check your PM's in the near future. Think that will be better as it/I won't get off topic so much as I am wont to do.

Posted: **Tue May 07, 2019 2:18 am**

james_m wrote: solar arc directions are not a stand alone predictive tool, but i have found the data very useful in getting a feel for the future possibilities on a chart..

most of the predictive indian astrology i have read to date seems to fall onto dasas.. i imagine solar returns and transits are used as well, but i have no idea if solar arc directions are... i would be curious...

Hi James. I used solar arcs many years ago and found them a very reliable and robust adjunct to the natal chart. Still, have high regard for the technique.

As I got into Indian astrology I just didn't use them anymore and relied on dasha and transits for the most part. A lot of Indian astrologers use the Varshphal, or solar return in addition as well.
In summary, Indian astrology does not use solar arcs, but as you surmised, dasha, transits, and solar returns.

Instead of Varshphal, I use the Tithi Pravesh (this is a home grown Indian technique perhaps adapted from Varshphal; I don't know.) I find it a lot less ambiguous in many regards.

I also use tertiary progressions when I need corroboration and even secondary progressions once in a great while. These are not found in traditional Indian astrology either.

Every day and for the most part dasha and transit is the bread and butter of prediction in Indian astrology and rarely needs supplementation.
If you notice natally the Thai king is running the sub period of the Sun in the main period of Mercury right now. 10L Me is in the ninth in Leo, a royal sign, the Sun is lord of the ninth. Ju is closely aspecting the ninth house as well.

The transits on coronation day. transiting 5H Su to nMa. tSa/Ke on the ascendant (note the special aspects of Sa and Ketu and how many houses they are affecting), tMars aspects the 6th, 9th, 12th and asc. tKe aspecting natal Ju. transiting Gandhanta Ju is even firing off the 12th, 4th, 6th and 8th houses. tVe on the nMo. Did I miss any?... there's some natal to transit contacts too. Wow!
What to make of all that.
Transiting Saturn/Ketu right on his ascendant will be interesting to watch. Saturn is all about responsibility and Ketu nonattachment and not being seen. How will this force manifest in the coming months, especially when he gets into the subperiod of the Moon in late October.

Posted: **Tue May 07, 2019 6:55 pm**

hi aj,

thanks! regarding tithi pravesha - i was unfamiliar with it until you shared this today... as i understand it, it is the degree differential between sun-moon that is treated like the solar return.. that is a novel approach and i like the idea.. it is interesting how this idea isn't pursued more as there is a lot of wisdom to it.. basically it makes the differential, or what i gather are specific names for the sun-moon phase - tithi's - into the focal point over the sun or moons position - solar or lunar return.. it makes sense.. do i have the basic concept correct? https://srath.com/tithi-pravesha/

as for the transits at the time of the kings coronation - yes - lots going on! as i see it, the critical transit is that of saturn to natal moon.. taking on greater responsibility and all that this entails is at the top of his experience at this moment.. i suppose indian astrology doesn't utilize the outer planets - neptune, uranus and pluto.. still, for me having the natal moon sandwiched between saturn-neptune tells a story of a persons willingness to devote themselves to their family in some type of sacrificial way.. perhaps as one gets older, one can get into the saturn energy more.. he certainly has a lot of it at this moment in time.. whether it will remain a focus for him moving forward remains to be seen here.. obviously this part of his chart clashes strongly with the bon voyant playboy persona that has been suggested as his style.. will he give up - renunciate this to adopt a role of divine figurehead for the thai royal family?? that is the key question that some might be asking..

and yes - how with the moon sub period - bhukti work out here?? moon is tricky as ruler of the 8th... sometimes one's inheritance, as we were talking about in the birth of harry and megans boy - is a real burden, as opposed to not... and the close conjunction of moon to saturn is very challenging as i see it, not matter it's placement in the 10th...

thanks for your comments!

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King Vajiralongkorn of thailand

King Vajiralongkorn of thailand

New king of thailand

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