Skyscript Astrology Forum

i am using the richard branson data i left yesterday as a starting point for discussing this more.. i am going to add the remaining points i left out yesterday...

i have never worked with the D4 chart, so your use of this is quite fascinating to me.. after looking at a number of the divisional charts for branson, it is true - venus in gemini shows up more then a few times..

below are the 7am and 712:38am D4 charts.. as one can quickly see, a 12 minute difference really alters the angles and house positions..





although i haven't read this book by vp goel on divisional charts, i am going to quote a few of his comments on the examination of D4 charts..the book is called comprehensive prediction by divisional charts - v. p. goel..

"1. Jupiter is the signifactor of happiness and is examined in D4 for its status, placement etc. jupiter in 6,8,12 houses gives despair for wealth.. mars is the signifcator built up properties.. venus is for luxuries and vehicles, moon for mental happiness and mother, mercury for education, saturn for friends and masses, change of residence after marriage for girls..

2. see the relation of 2nd lord, 11th lord of D1 chart with jupiter in D4 chart.. a good relation assures happiness.

3. formation of dhana yoga in D4 assures wealth and happiness.

4. presence of rajyoga gives enjoyment of wealth.

5. mars is the signifactor of fixed assets.. strong mars is a must for owning land/buildings.. mars in 10th house of D4 is best placement for granting fixed assets.

6. tenth lord of D1 chart, if related to lagna or lagna lord of D4 then lots of income from properties is assured.

7. ketu in 4th house or related to 4th house gives loss of assets due to natural calamity.

8. transfers or movement away from home, happens when 3rd, 9th and 12th houses are involved. home posting is indicated by teh relation of 2nd and 11th house with lagna, 4th house or 8th house.. the running dasha holds the clue.. the dasha period should relate to these houses in D1 and D4 charts.

9. if a movable sign falls in 4th house and the fourth lord is also in movable sign then there is no permanent residence and person is always on the move.. a fixed sign gives permanent home.

10. lagna lord of D4 if occupy a benefit shastiamsha if give permanent good house.. if in malefic shastiamsha then gives temporary house..

11. aspect of jupiter on lagna of D4 is a promise of happiness.. if this jupiter is kndra lord, we can predict happiness of material things..

12. if 12th lord occupies 4th house, the person lives in someone else house.

13. chaturthamsha is seen for mother also... the mutual love and affection of mother is present when lagna lord and fourth lord are mutually well placed... when fourth lord is in eight from lagna or in trik houses from lagna lord then there is enemity between them..

14. fourth house stans for character of a person.. moon is the karaka of mind.. if moon is afflicted then the person is deceitful.. rahu in lagna or fourth house makes a person look innocent but he is full of deceith..

15.. comforts of life are the domain of jupiter.. when jupiter is weak there are malefic in fourth house, fourth lord weak and have malefic association then the life is uncomfortable.

16. fourth lord in upachaya houses gies many properties..

17. fourth lord is badly placed in trik house, is debilitated or is in inimical sign and is in malefic shashtiamsha then there is loss of property.. with the involvement of tenth house and sun or mars then the loss is due to government orders..

18. sale of property - fourth lord is with a malefic and placed in second house and is strong..

19. discontinuation of family - when malefics are placed in lagna, moon in forth house and malefics in eleventh house..

20. happiness is not only property.. one can get happiness from other sources also.. for example the source of happiness by sun is from father or government...

james_m wrote:i am using the richard branson data i left yesterday as a starting point for discussing this more.. i am going to add the remaining points i left out yesterday...

i have never worked with the D4 chart, so your use of this is quite fascinating to me.. after looking at a number of the divisional charts for branson, it is true - venus in gemini shows up more then a few times..

below are the 7am and 712:38am D4 charts.. as one can quickly see, a 12 minute difference really alters the angles and house positions..

although i haven't read this book by vp goel on divisional charts, i am going to quote a few of his comments on the examination of D4 charts..the book is called comprehensive prediction by divisional charts - v. p. goel..

"1. Jupiter is the signifactor of happiness and is examined in D4 for its status, placement etc. jupiter in 6,8,12 houses gives despair for wealth.. mars is the signifcator built up properties.. venus is for luxuries and vehicles, moon for mental happiness and mother, mercury for education, saturn for friends and masses, change of residence after marriage for girls..

2. see the relation of 2nd lord, 11th lord of D1 chart with jupiter in D4 chart.. a good relation assures happiness.

3. formation of dhana yoga in D4 assures wealth and happiness.

4. presence of rajyoga gives enjoyment of wealth.

5. mars is the signifactor of fixed assets.. strong mars is a must for owning land/buildings.. mars in 10th house of D4 is best placement for granting fixed assets.

6. tenth lord of D1 chart, if related to lagna or lagna lord of D4 then lots of income from properties is assured.

7. ketu in 4th house or related to 4th house gives loss of assets due to natural calamity.

8. transfers or movement away from home, happens when 3rd, 9th and 12th houses are involved. home posting is indicated by teh relation of 2nd and 11th house with lagna, 4th house or 8th house.. the running dasha holds the clue.. the dasha period should relate to these houses in D1 and D4 charts.

9. if a movable sign falls in 4th house and the fourth lord is also in movable sign then there is no permanent residence and person is always on the move.. a fixed sign gives permanent home.

10. lagna lord of D4 if occupy a benefit shastiamsha if give permanent good house.. if in malefic shastiamsha then gives temporary house..

11. aspect of jupiter on lagna of D4 is a promise of happiness.. if this jupiter is kndra lord, we can predict happiness of material things..

12. if 12th lord occupies 4th house, the person lives in someone else house.

13. chaturthamsha is seen for mother also... the mutual love and affection of mother is present when lagna lord and fourth lord are mutually well placed... when fourth lord is in eight from lagna or in trik houses from lagna lord then there is enemity between them..

14. fourth house stans for character of a person.. moon is the karaka of mind.. if moon is afflicted then the person is deceitful.. rahu in lagna or fourth house makes a person look innocent but he is full of deceith..

15.. comforts of life are the domain of jupiter.. when jupiter is weak there are malefic in fourth house, fourth lord weak and have malefic association then the life is uncomfortable.

16. fourth lord in upachaya houses gies many properties..

17. fourth lord is badly placed in trik house, is debilitated or is in inimical sign and is in malefic shashtiamsha then there is loss of property.. with the involvement of tenth house and sun or mars then the loss is due to government orders..

18. sale of property - fourth lord is with a malefic and placed in second house and is strong..

19. discontinuation of family - when malefics are placed in lagna, moon in forth house and malefics in eleventh house..

20. happiness is not only property.. one can get happiness from other sources also.. for example the source of happiness by sun is from father or government...

Namaste

I checked my chart , Mars my 4/9 Lord of d4 is in 9 house itself , and Jupiter occupies 4th house.
In D1 mars is 3/10 Lord in 9th house with 4/9 Lord Venus aspected by 1/12 Lord Saturn

Now I did came into inheritance house but I sold it , purchased a new, had to sell it too for money Now I have no property of my own
Same for my car.

I have just entered Mars MD @48 age, do I have any chance of regaining those?

Thanks

james_m wrote: below are the 7am and 712:38am D4 charts.. as one can quickly see, a 12 minute difference really alters the angles and house positions..

Just a few technical notes... might be helpful judging which chart.
For RB's D1Cancer rising;
For the D4 chart, the D4Asc changes to Aries at 07:07:38.
I also think it's important not to lose sight of RB's D9 as it has a lot to do with general fortune for the gain of net assets.
For the 7:12:38 D1chart this is especially important as the D9 ascendant changes to Aquarius at 7:12:22, just 16 seconds difference.

Thought I would drop in Stefan's comments from the other thread too as they ignited the D4 discussion and for handy reference.
Stefan wrote

But one thing stands out imo in his many subcharts is that planet venus (music) is repeating it's sign position gemini in soo many key subcharts. And venus is in own sign in navamsha chart. This explains to me some about his success with music related affairs. Some good karma there.

Venus is also ruling his 4th house (homes) in his sidereal whole sign chart, so the strength of venus as ruler gives his many good homes, including his own Island in a 'distant place'. Which is spot on with venus as ruler of 4th placed in 12th house (foreign, distant places).
(He bought the Island 1978,

https://www.virgin.com/richard-branson/ ... ker-island

which give venus as subperiod for that bargain !
It was in the major period of the sun. The sun is vargottam in the 4th house in his subchart for homes Chaturthamsha (which is true for the 7:12:28 time, but not the 7:00 time.
In chaturthamsha home chart the 7:12 time sun is 5th ruler placed in 4th house, which give good karma with home in the sun period.
In 7:00 chaturthamsha home chart... the sun is 8th ruler placed in 7th.

the burning down of his home 2011 was in a moon subperiod. Moon is placed in scorpio in his 8th house of upheaval and changes in 7:12 chart.)

So this look at the Chaturthamsha home chart with the periods was another key that made me think that his birth is some time after 7 am.

Stefan wrote

But one thing stands out imo in his many subcharts is that planet venus (music) is repeating it's sign position gemini in soo many key subcharts. And venus is in own sign in navamsha chart. This explains to me some about his success with music related affairs. Some good karma there.

Yes I agree, good call there. Venus in D9 is in its own sign for both birth times, and aspected by Jupiter.

Venus is also ruling his 4th house (homes) in his sidereal whole sign chart, so the strength of venus as ruler gives his many good homes, including his own Island in a 'distant place'. Which is spot on with venus as ruler of 4th placed in 12th house (foreign, distant places).
(He bought the Island 1978, https://www.virgin.com/richard-branson/ ... ker-island which give venus as subperiod for that bargain !

Another spot on delineation, couldn't agree more.

It was in the major period of the sun. The sun is vargottam in the 4th house in his subchart for homes Chaturthamsha (which is true for the 7:12:28 time, but not the 7:00 time.
In chaturthamsha home chart the 7:12 time sun is 5th ruler placed in 4th house, which give good karma with home in the sun period.
In 7:00 chaturthamsha home chart... the sun is 8th ruler placed in 7th.
the burning down of his home 2011 was in a moon subperiod in the main period of Rahu. Moon is placed in scorpio in his 8th house of upheaval and changes in 7:12 chart.)

Don't take this too seriously. I am just going to play devils advocate here for the exercise of my little grey cells, but the burning down of his home could also just be explained from the Rasi alone without recourse to the D4 (using wide aspects which I find to be more important in the later years of life, and I think a bit of a cheat in this instance). During the Moon subperiod... in the Rasi the Moon is placed in the 2nd house of family and possessions (wealth) is afflicted by the lord of losses through fire and theft Jupiter from the 8th house of accidents and death like experiences. Moon is also associated with ati papa 8th lord Saturn. 6th Lord Jupiter also aspects Venus ruler of the fourth house of home in the 12th and afficts the fourth house as well.
Main period ruler Rahu is afflicting the Sun disposter of the Moon and Saturn too.
Here's the 0700 chart for reference, KP ayanamsa. Same would apply for the 0712 chart too. Be well.

I'm buying your reasoning.....


Yes - things can be explained in different ways, that's true for astrology as an art with a multitude set of techniques. The astrologer having faith in his method does often good work. Faith does magnify the intuition and attunement. Therefore both tropical and sidereal astrology does work in the hands of a good astrologer imo.


Just inserting this link to Hank Friedmans site. He is a student of Hart Defouw
using the Iyer method of delineating divisional charts. Some of the principles here is well explained. Interesting aproach.... Goels book is good, but he puts his net a bit very wide imo, so it is maybe good to have a more simplistic model as an alternative also. This is quite popular, but have not heard about the theory of the 'friendly houses' before....

https://www.soulhealing.com/DivisionalCharts1.pdf

a couple of comments... first off - thank you all for the additional comments...

here is my dilemma... being new to indian astrology, the learning curve is steep.. i have gravitated towards divisional charts, as i spent a fair amount of time reading books on harmonics by john addey, david hamblins books, including his latest one from 2011 - the spirit of numbers - a new exploration of harmonic astrology and a number of other books that approach harmonics, or divisional charts from mostly a very different perspective then how indian astrology seems to be approaching them..

so, i now come to indian astrology and am made aware of a number of systems that use divisional charts, but there is a hierarchy to their use which one quickly picks up thru an examination of shadbala - sharvarga, is not the same as saptvarga, dasvarga, shodashvarga and etc. etc... the difference is in which divisional charts are considered more central or relevant from some perpective developed over the course of time.. in sharvarga d1, 2, 3, 9, 12 and 30, are considered more important in some fundamental way, then say d4 or d10 and etc. etc.. which brings me to the pdf that stefan has shared - thank you stefan! in stefans paper the divisional charts mentioned on page 1 and 2 of the 16 page pdf are d9, and d3 - both considered most important, followed by d4,d10, d11, d6, d8, and d27 - some of which are divided up a few different ways, so d6, d8, d11 and d27 can be thought of as having a couple of different versions.. maybe there is more...

perhaps you see where i am going with this?? who decides which one is more relevant? what is it based on? i looking at the d27 chart for example, i see very similar patterns to the d9 chart which stands to reason given the number relationship..

stefans paper touches on this a wee bit, but it is not the central focus of the paper and the outstanding question, or questions i have on it revolve around what exactly the heirachy of these divisional charts are, or after d9 and d3, are they are equally relevant? or are they meant to answer specific issues that the other ones don't? the answer to the last question seems to be yes - that is how they are thought of.. thank you for the pdf stefan.. i read it and found it interesting.. without any research on my part, it is hard to know how valid the authors observations are..

next, i find myself being somewhat overwhelmed by how central the dasa system is to indian astrology.. it reminds me a bit of how solar returns, solar arc directions, primary directions or even profections for others - are a cnetral template that they work with while filling in the holes with transit or other related data.. in the indian system it seems like the dasa system - i gather there are various dasa systems too) becomes the central template where all the other data falls into, in and around the dasas at work for the particular chart...

so, i am at a disadvantage in not having spent any time working with dasas!! what it means is i can read what stefan, aj and others are saying, but i can't fully appreciate it because i have spent next to no time doing any analysis of charts, beginning with my own under the microscope of the dasa systems..

so, i continue to plod along having a lot of questions in my head while getting tentative answers to some of it by happenstance, or thru the kindness of posters here - therese, aj, stefan and others... as i said - it is a steep learning curve.. i am up for it, but i feel like i am not going fast enough to catch up to where you folks are.. and of course i wonder how you have made decisions of importance on the use of different divisional charts which i have tried to address in my earlier paragraphs.. the pdf thru me for a bit of a loop given the fact it is much more contemporary and outside the mainstream hierarchy that i picked up from earlier on which divisional charts are more or less important.. d4 wasn't even mentioned until stefan brought it up on the branson thread..

how, i have looked at these charts from a harmonic perspective, but they are treated very differently in indian astrology, so again - i am receptive and in the process of coming to my own position on all of it... i am very curious about how others have synthesized or integrated the use of these different divisional charts, or if they bypass any concern for how certain divisional charts might be more relevant then others?? thanks..

Hi James,

Some comments.
I use mostly the basic divisional charts which rules the primary areas of life such as career (d-10), Homes (d-4) children (d-7) siblings (d-3)

Spirituality (d-20, d-5 and navamsha).

Navamsha can be used for many things.

Health issues using in addition to the normal chart I use drekkana d-3 and d-6.

There are variations of d-2 and d-11 for wealth. But I have not used them that much.

The d-27 mentioned here I have never used, don't even know what it is good for.

The charts can be used as a detective to get more info into a period as the planets have multiple meanings.

For example venus as ruler of 4th house in Bransons chart can manifest in several ways. 4th house is mother, home, vehicles, happiness, edu et.c.
So Branson had very good experience and support by his mother in venus dasha, looking into d-12 dwadashamsha (parents) venus is vargottama there whichever ascendant is true for that chart depending on which time that is correct.

But in siddhamsha (studies) venus is in virgo debilitated, so some trouble in studies , which were true.

vehicles is another 4th house theme. And in a venus subperiod he did the world record in a ballon flight (1987).
And he bought his Island home super cheap in a venus subperiod. In his chaturthamsha chart for homes venus is vargottama again.

So venus seems to work in many areas due to it's strength. But that did not help him in studies. The divisional chart can help to see such differences.

Jupiter-jupiter period 2014 did crash his space plane
October 31, 2014 - SpaceShipTwo explodes during a test flight, killing one pilot and injuring the other.


Jupiter is in 8th house of his birthchart.
In shodashamsha (vehicles) d-16 (from a birthtime later than 7:06)
jupiter is in 12th house with rahu...aspected by mars the 8L.



I looked at his mars in natal 3rd house of siblings. looking into the D-3 drekkana chart for siblings we see that mars is again present in the 3rd house which is a key house for that divisional chart...so something about siblings in mars period would be likely....checking his dasha peiods we see that he was running venus-Mars during 1959......checking his siblings we find....

https://www.google.com/search?sa=X&q=va ... 36&bih=754

Vanessa Branson born 1959 during his mars subperiod (in the venus major period.)

So a confirmation from the divisional chart makes for more certainty in prediction in many cases...

thanks stefan,

your posts always force me to look into more astrology which is a good thing.. i am unfamilir with the d24 chart, but just found a pdf on this - http://www.vedicastrologer.org/articles/para_d24.pdf

perhaps a different result will happen if one uses the system they describe in the first 2 pages of the pdf.. i use solar fire and i have no idea how the data is gotten.. i know in reading vp goels book on divisional charts, i am reading on the D2 chart and there are a few ways to make these charts - maybe 4 or 5 ways? the way my software does it is only one way..

about the D3 chart and your comments... i suppose you realize the results are virtually the same no matter whether you use the 7am or 712am time?

lets go back to the D1 chart and a persons learning... branson is said to be dyslexic.. this would affect his learning... 4th house is connected to education as i understand it in indian astrology.. the 4th house is ruled by venus and venus is in gemini in the 12th house.. how does this play into it? does the position of mercury in the same sign as the rising sign cancer lend a more positive role on the venus in gemini here? where is the dyslexia in the chart?

here is a quick description of dyslexia..
"Dyslexia is a learning disorder that involves difficulty reading due to problems identifying speech sounds and learning how they relate to letters and words (decoding). Also called reading disability, dyslexia affects areas of the brain that process language."

speech is a 2nd house issue in indian astrology... could it be the moon-saturn in the 2nd has some bearing on this? this reminds me of the argala concept in that the houses of ones assets - tangible and etc are the 2nd, 4th and 11th... the 2nd is the 11th from the 4th... perhaps the assets he has have motivated him in a different direction and he has been a screaming success thanks what might look like a handicap to others?? perhaps it was you who was quoting the school teacher who on the last day of class said that he would either be a millionaire or go to prision??? - hey, if it was up to me some of these kleptomaniacs would go to prison, but branson as one of the new rich has never struck me as a person who got his money in any ill gotten manner, so i am just joking..

back to the topic of spirituality in the D24 and D5 chart - this is again all new to me.. i read vp goels book on navamsha and he had what i thought were brilliant ideas on this topic near the end of his book.. the chapter is titled " devotion to religion".. he uses the charts of osho, ma anandmayima and a few others to present his ideas.. if you are interested, i suggest you pick up the book.. he seemed to get a lot off the D9 chart..

i agree with you that the other divisional charts can add information to the natal chart.. i am still in the early stages of appreciating their use... thanks for your posts stefan.. i really appreciate them.. james

Stefan wrote:I'm buying your reasoning.....
Yes - things can be explained in different ways, that's true for astrology as an art with a multitude set of techniques. The astrologer having faith in his method does often good work. Faith does magnify the intuition and attunement. Therefore both tropical and sidereal astrology does work in the hands of a good astrologer imo.

Don’t get me wrong, I use vargas a lot too. In fact, they are indispensable. As I said I was being a devil's advocate just because is easy to get carried away with vargas, but you do a good job of keeping the Rasi in perspective while using them which is the right method.

We've all come across charts once in a while that in spite of certain configurations being strong in the Rasi they just don’t fructify or manifest differently than predicted. This is where a close study of the concerned house in association with the corresponding divisional chart provides the answer. I would agree with you that any prediction without it being tested with the relevant divisional chart stands less of a chance of being accurate.

Be Well.

Yes they are important and valid. The problem with them is of course that for full use of them a birthtime with descent validness is important.

I just checked my own chart for arriving of my little sister in 1977.

Richard Branson was running the subperiod of mars in his 3rd house in his D-3 Drekkana chart for siblings when a younger sibling took birth.

When my little sister incarnated I was running Mars-Venus period.
As my ascendant is Leo the 3rd house in my chart is libra ruled by venus, so far soo good for a sibling in that year. Checking my Drekkana chart this subperiod venus is placed in my 3rd house in Drekkana. So a good confirmation there that venus subperiod was important for siblings. Similar to Branson case of younger sibling.

James yes good question about dyslexia in Bransons chart I have also thought about it some, without coming to any conclusion, will go again. But I did have some contemplation that the navamsha with aquarius ascendant, the Mercury is placed in the 8th house with Rahu, taking it as an argument in favour of the aqua ascendant in the navamsha chart. This would complicate mercury issues some.Don't know. It could of course be other issues as well, will have another peek later.

( My wife have dyslexia, and it clearly is her mercury which is Rx which increases the more visual ability of the brain. Her mercury is aspected by some malefics and is in same degree as jupiter...loosing the planetary war due to the size of jupiter over mercury. So her mercury is quite afflicted.)

Stefan wrote:Yes they are important and valid. The problem with them is of course that for full use of them a birthtime with descent validness is important.

I've not followed the additional posts about RB's chart and vargas very closely so I apologize if some of this is repetitious.

Picking this point up about accurate birthtimes a few more details on the use of vargas is relevant especially for any learners that may be reading this. I know I've said this about vargas somewhere before on this forum but don't have time to search for it so I'll just say it again.

In divisional charts, we must take into consideration that positions can change with a one or two-minute difference in the birthtime.

Even with a reliable time of birth its a good rule of thumb to take divisional chart analysis only up to D12. For analysis beyond D12, I would be very cautious about considering the divisional ascendant as a factor and then only use the lord of the analogous house(s) and the natural karakas of the concerned vargas in question. The ascendant and its lord in any varga beyond D12 may very well be unreliable as they change in a matter of minutes.

Here are some rough ascendant times to keep in mind for some of the higher divisionals.
D12 changes about every 12-14 minutes.
D16 is pretty safe as the ascendant changes about every nine or ten minutes.
D24 changes about every seven minutes or so.
D27 changes every five to six minutes.

Depending on the rising degree of the Lagna it could put a divisional ascendant over very with a small error in birth time.

Of course, because vargas do change so rapidly (as you have shown) they can be a helpful tool in rectification.

Be Well.