I have erected a chart regarding a horary question and I would appreciate any experienced input.

Background of the query :

There are presently two rival workers union in the factory where I work as a quality manager.These two unions have been claiming for the legal right of representation for a while and the issue is at the court.The case will be taken up again hopefully for a final decision as to which one legally has the right to represent the workers in the factory.

So my query today was : Will the union A win over B? (This is just out of curiosity)

I take the 6th house as significator of the union A and the 12th of the rival (i.e union B)

Is this a correct choice?

If yes, what should I expect for A to win or lose the case? I mean under which circumstances A can be said to most likely win?

Then I will start deliniating the chart here and will also let you know about the outcome at the end of this month (September).

Many thanks in advance.

Two-pronged questions like this can be tricky. Usually I try to avoid these as it's tough to pick the significators. Sometimes people will ask should I go to college A or college B? For a horary like that, it's always better to pick one, say college A and ask should I go there.

You're right, the 6th house deals with labor unions.

But how would you know whether to place Union A in the 6th and not Union B? Do you have one that you favor? Maybe you could pick the one that you favor and ask the question again at new time. If you use that strategy, then the 1st house would be your union, the 7th for the rival union and just follow the usual procedings for a legal question - the judge and the verdict would be in seen in the 10th house.

Hi Sigma4

I would see this as a contest between two sides that you have no real part in so I would perhaps treat it as more of a 1st/7th thing. I do not see this as a two pronged question but rather you have asked fairly clearly whether union A will win. I would put union A on the 1st and then its competition, union B, on the 7th. It is possible to treat this as a legal case and follow all the rules of this such as finding prosecutor, defendent, judge, etc but I'm not sure I would bother with that, particularly since you asked out of curiosity and your question was simply 'Will union A win over union B. Similar to asking about a football game.

Regarding signification:

If using the 1st and 7th Houses, I would use the 1st to signify the union you have the most affinity with (it might even be the union you belong to), and the 7th to represent the "opposing" one.

I would like to thank for valuable inputs. Below is my deliniation of this horary:

Query : Will Union A win the case? (against a rival/opposing union B)

A post note : Although the actual wording in my original post included both unions as ?Will Union A win over Union B??, this was to make the query clear for the forum readers, to make it known that there are two competing unions in this case.The query as it actually was born in my mind at the time of query was exactly like : Will Union A win the case?


Date : September 1, 2005
Time : 14:15 GMT
Place: Eskisehir, Turkey (30e32, 39n46)
House system : Regiomontanus

Significators :

Asc is 24.20 Capricorn and the ruler Saturn is in the 7th house in Leo.I take this as one of the testimonies of radicality of this chart since the query is about a legal case, a clearly 7th house issue.Saturn?s being in detriment may, besides other things, be indicating that I am in need of help (powerless) to deliniate this chart J


As querent, I ask the question out of deep curiosity ABOUT the possibility of a Union A?s winning the case.I am not a member of either unions, nor in affinity with them.Nor did a union member ask me this question.

Although the ascendant signifies me, it is not relevant to the outcome since I do not ask on behalf of the unions. This is similar to a query like ?whether my son will be able to get the job? where I would then take the 5th as the significator of my son (querent), and the derived 10th house (radical 2nd) as that of the job (quesited).

Therefore by analogy, I now take the 6th as the significator of Union A; Mercury in this case, as there is Gemini on the sixth cusp.So the derived 7th house, or radical 12th house represents the opponent, that is Union B.Therefore Jupiter signifies Union B as there is Sagittarius on the cusp.

Seen from the perspective of the 6th house (Union A) derived 10th house represents the legal judgement and the judge himself.Aries rising, therefore mars signifies the judge and the court?s decision.

I take Moon as both the co-significator of the whole case and actions of the Union A.

Jupiter signifies the opponent (Union B, the unions herein after to be referred to as A and B only) as the derived 7th house (radical 12th) is ruled by Sagittarius. Jupiter also signifies A?s lawyer and the law in general as the derived 9th house is ruled by Pisces.
But since this is a diurnal chart, Jupiter signifies B first, A?s lawyer and law next.

Here there is another testimony in favor of the chart?s radicality as Jupiter, a universal significator of justice rules the A?s 9th house, the house of law and is placed in Libra, the sign of jurisdiction.
Now seen from B?s perspective (looking from the radical 12th house), outcome of the case/judgement is signified by Venus as the 10th from the radical 12th is the radical 9th on Libra.Venus is in her domicile and strong with a very tight conjunction with Jupiter, B?s significator.This conjunction accidentally dignifies both Jupiter and Venus as both are benefics.

Deliniation :

Having specified the significators we can now start delineating the horoscope.

In doing this, I will try to look at the whole issue from both perspectives.

From A?s angle the court?s judgement may seem to be bitter and unjust as mars is in detriment in Taurus.There is no mutual reception between mercury and mars and no applying aspect.Mercury (A?s significator) is in jupiter?s term which is a bit positive and also accidentally dignified in A?s 2nd house but it is in its opponent?s 8th house and in Leo which is intercepted.A maybe thinks he has some power but he is seen in difficult and hopeless situation from the opponent?s (B?s) angle.

Just the opposite is the case for B as B?s significator Jupiter is in the 4th house of his opponent and in the 10th house as seen from his ascendant (i.e radical 12th).Since the tenth is the house of judgement and the second strongest house, it is a very favorable place to be in for B. So B is in a much better condition relatively and accidentally. Furthermore, Jupiter is in partile conjunction with venus in Libra (venus? domicile) and in his own term which supports him.

Now let us look at the moon.

Moon is in venus? term in Leo.Since venus signifies the court?s judgement from B?s perspective, starting condition for the moon favors B. She is going to a square with mars. As mars is in detriment and signifies the judgement from A?s perspective an applying square to mars may indicate an unwanted decision or at least a legal difficulty to overcome for A.

The only hope for a positive outcome for A then is an unhindered perfection of conjunction to his significator mercury to translate light from mars. And there is such a possibility indeed! Moon makes a sextile to venus and Jupiter in her way then perfects a conjunction to mercury.

Judgement :

So, albeit with apparent difficulty, A manages to win the case in the end.

But, before finishing the deliniation let me add that there happens a curious thing before perfection of Moon-Mercury conjunction. When seen from B?s perspective, for a positive outcome favoring B, Venus must conjoin Jupiter. Yet Moon makes a sextile to Venus, thus frustrating Jupiter before Venus conjoins Jupiter. It is a loss in the last minute for B. Given the comparatively favorable and hopeful conditions for B at the start such an ending should be a real frustration I guess!

We will see how things will turn out. The case will be held on the 22th of September 2005 and I will inform you about the outcome.

I will appreciate any comments on this lengthy prediction and thank you for your patience.

We will see how things will turn out. The case will be held on the 22th of September 2005 and I will inform you about the outcome.

The case has been postponed to the 13th of October, so final decision will only be known then.

I haven't checked the chart to see if there is any indication for this postponing and I believe the existing chart is still valid until the case is finalized by a decision next month.

Or do I have to ask again for the next month?

Hi Sigma4,

I have not had the chance to look at this chart but I have just read your delineation. I think perhaps you have made it more difficult than it needs to be. I would probably stick to giving the 1st house to union A (Saturn) as the union you have asked about, the 7th house to union B (the Moon), and the 10th house (Mars) to the judge or the judgement. I would not go turning the chart as it is not necessary to put you in the radical chart at all. The other alternative would be if there was a particular union that initiated the action, i.e. took the other union to court. It is quite legitimate to give the 1st house to whoever initiates the action and the 7th to the defendant.

You do not need to ask the question again. It is still the same court case.

Cheers
Sue

Sue :

I would probably stick to giving the 1st house to union A (Saturn) as the union you have asked about, the 7th house to union B (the Moon), and the 10th house (Mars) to the judge or the judgement.

Thanks for the valuable input.Now I will try once more that way.

Saturn rules asc, so he signifies Union A.Saturn is in the 7th in his detriment Leo, which is intercepted in the 7th house.

Opponent's (Union B) significator (ruler of the 7th house) is Moon and she also is in the 7th house in Leo as separated from Saturn by about 10 degrees - still within moiety of Moon-Saturn conjunction.

Moon is applying to Mars in Taurus - significator of the legal judgement - by a square.

Well aside other things, Moon (Union B) here 'receives' Mars (judgement) by exaltation. Moon receives or welcomes, accepts, holds in high regard the Mars in accordance with accepted traditional meaning of reception (also in reference to the latest re-emphasis and conclusive arguments in the hot debate in the ongoing Reception thread on this forum).

In other words, Union B, the opponent holds the judgement in high regard and it indicates the outcome of the judgement is so important for them also the judgement will be to their favor (since you don't normally keep something in high esteem and accept a decision if you lose-my discretion). Moon's application to Mars, albeit by a square, is promising; meaning that Union B is supposed to win.Square here may be indicating the outcome will be obtained to B's favor with difficulty.

Note that Venus, the 4th' ruler (end of the matter) disposits Mars here and placed in Libra in partile conjunction of Jupiter.Although Mars is essentially debilitated in Taurus, his dispositor Venus is very well dignified.I am not sure if this adds anything to Mars' strength but the Moon's next application is to Venus by sextile.I conjecture that the final court decision will be to B's favor and it will be pleasant for them.

Sue, yes it is now far simpler and more clear this way than my previous method to reach the conclusion

We'll see next month how it is played out anyway.

Any comments?

I conjecture that the final court decision will be to B's favor and it will be pleasant for them.

Sue, yes it is now far simpler and more clear this way than my previous method to reach the conclusion

We'll see next month how it is played out anyway.

Just to keep you informed : Union B won the case on the 13th of October 2005. But I learned that Union A objected to the decision and appealed to a higher court as most people expected. Final decision is supposed to come in the following months.

I will let you know again when the case is over.

Hello all,

After successive trials and re-trials in the past one and a half years, finally the case is over to the favor of Union B as predicted. Court decision was announced in the factory exactly two weeks ago.

Cheers,
Sigma