Skyscript Astrology Forum

The comparison of Harmonic-8 to Harmonic-9

I would like to give a few examples of why the circle cannot be divided by any number. There must be very logical reasons why we can divide the circle by a number. An important question would be how we can know whether the number has been chosen correctly or not ? how do we check it ?

The conditions for the correct and reliable comparison :

1) The planetary pictures we are looking for must be correct.They must be checked beforehand with many examples.
2) The planetary pictures we are looking for must be accurate as far as possible.
3) Sidereal Zodiac must be used.
4) Sidereal keys must be used for the progressions.
5) The planetary pictures we are looking for must be present in most returns and progressions.

The planetary pictures we are looking for :

VE/MN = SU for marriage
VE/NE = MA/SA; MA/SA = VE ; VE/NE = VE The separation from the mother and the partner
JU/NE = MA/SA ; MA/SA = JU ; JU = NE for the death of the father

Examples :


Caroline, Princess of Monaco

23 January 1957 at 09:27 (= 09:27 AM )Monte Carlo, Monaco, 43n45, 7e25

https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Ca ... _of_Monaco


Marriage on 28 June 1978

Transit Harmonic 8

t VE/MN = r SU
t SU/VE = r VE



Transit (Harmonic 9)

t VE/MN = -




Marriage 29 December 1983 (Stefano Casiraghi)

Transit Harmonic 8

t VE = r SU = r MN




Transit (Harmonic 9)

t VE = -




Death of husband 3 October 1990 11:18 AM MET, Monte Carlo, Monaco. (Stefano drowned)

https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Casiraghi,_Stefano

Transit Harmonic 8


t MA/SA = t NE = r VE/NE = r VE/MN The separation from the husband by death.




Transit (Harmonic 9)

t MA/SA = -



Death of mother 13 September 1982 at 10:55 PM in Monte Carlo

Mother is Venus and Moon.

Secondary Progression Harmonic 8

p MA/SA = r MO/NE = r MO/MN = r VE Separation from the mother because of the death
p VE = r VE/NE Separation from the mother
p VE/NE = r MO Separation from the mother




Secondary Progression (Harmonic 9)

p MA/SA = r VE/NE Separation from the mother because of the death




Death of Father 6 April 2005 at 06:35 AM in Monaco

Father is Jupiter.

Transit Harmonic 8


t JU = t NE = r JU Separation from the father




Solar Return (Harmonic 9)


t JU = -




Stéphanie, Princess of Monaco

1 February 1965 at 18:25 (= 6:25 PM )Monte Carlo, Monaco, 43n45, 7e25

https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/St ... _of_Monaco

Death of mother 13 September 1982 at 10:55 PM in Monte Carlo

Mother is Venus and Moon.

Transit Harmonic 8

t VE/NE = r MA/SA

t VE/NE = 7° 56' 27''
t r MA/SA = 8° 1' 05''

Difference is 3' 38''




Transit (Harmonic 9)

t MO = 33° 19' 31'' - 20° 00' 00'' = 13° 19' 31''
r MA/SA = 13° 1' 05''

Difference is 18' 26''


t VE = 15° 6' 20'' + 20° 00' 00'' = 35° 6' 20''
t MA/SA = 35° 17' 55''

Difference is 11' 35''



Death of Father 6 April 2005 at 06:35 AM in Monaco

Secondary Progression Harmonic 8

p MA/SA = p JU/NE




Secondary Progression (Harmonic 9)

p MA/SA = -
p JU/NE = -




Secondary Converse Progression Harmonic 8

p MA/SA = r JU/NE




Secondary Converse Progression (Harmonic 9)

p MA/SA = r JU/SA




Conclusion : If it is true, which seems to be the case, that harmonic 9 is out of question, that is wrong, then Navamsa (D-9) would be wrong and inevitably Vargottoma would be wrong in some persons (for example Joe Biden).

The correct rule would be: If a planet in radix and in harmonic 8 is the same zodiac sign, it is Vargottama.

If my assumption is correct, then it would be disastrous for Vedic astrology. Therefore, one should not take everything for granted and always check if one can.

What had Buddha said :

“Believe nothing just because a so-called wise person said it.
Believe nothing just because a belief is generally held.
Believe nothing just because it is said in ancient books.
Believe nothing just because it is said to be of divine origin.
Believe nothing just because someone else believes it.
Believe only what you yourself test and judge to be true.???

I write in addition :

With accurate testing tools, you have to test.

Sorry to disagree with you on the use of Harmonic 9 Linchi.
In your system yes as you demonstrate with your examples but not in the way the system is used by Indian astrologers.
You are trying to fit 2 pieces of a puzzle which have different premises.
- First, the Indian astrology does not use planetary pictures
- Second, in the case of marriage and death, they would consider the relationship between the 2 persons and the 9th Harmonic relationship they have together. For example, John Lennon and Paul McCartney have the same ASC in the 9th Harmonic. This point becomes focal and they separated when transiting Saturn hit the ASC of Lennon, which resonated with the natal ASC of McCartney.
- Third, they use Signs (or Houses) along with planetary dignities and aspects.

All things that your system does not compare.
What your study shows is that the 9th Harmonic does not work in Uranian astrology and I am not surprised.
I have yet to read Alfred Witte's research on number 3. His work was centered on number 2 and multiples.
If you focus on your system (which works perfectly by its own!) without trying to incorporate the different premises of other systems you will demonstrate a lot more.

Best to you,
Ouranos

Ouranos wrote:

In your [Linchi's] system yes as you demonstrate with your examples but not in the way the system is used by Indian astrologers.
You are trying to fit 2 pieces of a puzzle which have different premises.

- First, the Indian astrology does not use planetary pictures.
- Second, in the case of marriage and death, they would consider the relationship between the 2 persons and the 9th Harmonic relationship they have together.
- Third, they use Signs (or Houses) along with planetary dignities and aspects.

If you focus on your system (which works perfectly by its own!) without trying to incorporate the different premises of other systems you will demonstrate a lot more.

Amen. Thank you, Ouranos.

Ouranos wrote:Sorry to disagree with you on the use of Harmonic 9 Linchi.
In your system yes as you demonstrate with your examples but not in the way the system is used by Indian astrologers.
You are trying to fit 2 pieces of a puzzle which have different premises.
- First, the Indian astrology does not use planetary pictures
- Second, in the case of marriage and death, they would consider the relationship between the 2 persons and the 9th Harmonic relationship they have together. For example, John Lennon and Paul McCartney have the same ASC in the 9th Harmonic. This point becomes focal and they separated when transiting Saturn hit the ASC of Lennon, which resonated with the natal ASC of McCartney.
- Third, they use Signs (or Houses) along with planetary dignities and aspects.

All things that your system does not compare.
What your study shows is that the 9th Harmonic does not work in Uranian astrology and I am not surprised.
I have yet to read Alfred Witte's research on number 3. His work was centered on number 2 and multiples.
If you focus on your system (which works perfectly by its own!) without trying to incorporate the different premises of other systems you will demonstrate a lot more.

Best to you,
Ouranos

I don't know who you are and I haven't read your books, so I don't know what you have done for astrology, but of course you can tell me what to do and what not to do. Apparently I have committed another sin. That will never happen again.

The software I use is written by P.V.R. Narasimha Rao that he is well known with his research in Vedic Astrology. He is also a sudent of Sanjay Rath. In his software Jagannatha Hora, there are 4 different Navamsa calculations, that is, 4 different Navamsa variations.

Here is the software :

https://vedicastrologer.org/jh/index.htm

I would like to show Joe Biden's navamsa variations here. Whether one or the other is correct is not important in this context.

1. Variation : Parasara's Navamsa




2. Variation : Parasara Navamsa with even sign reversal




3. Variation : Kalachakra Navamsa



4. Variation : Rangacharya's Krishna Mishra Navamsa / Nadi Navamsa of Pt.Rath (non uniform)




If someone wants to refute my claims, I expect him/her to do so with examples so that we can learn from him/her.

In earlier times, you guys might have called each other outside for a duel.

I must admit I find Linchi's presentations mathematically sound and his sticking to extremely tight orbs (necessary with high-numbered harmonics, and doubly so when midpoints are involved) demonstrative.

If I might ask a question of Linchi... have you looked at the Novien and how does it compare with normal 9th harmonic used in vedic? If you have an opinion on it, how would you contrast the two? (other than formula-wise, which is obvious)

In your system, what determines exactly which harmonic you are using? I understand the idea behind all the harmonics being powers of two, as each is a direct subdivision of the previous harmonic...

I also have to admit that it's a sign of open discussion that a thread with quadruple digit harmonics and midpoints, including TNPs, is welcomed and discussed on a mostly traditional astrology forum...

Hi, Atlantean,

Atlantean wrote:.. have you looked at the Novien and how does it compare with normal 9th harmonic used in vedic? If you have an opinion on it, how would you contrast the two? (other than formula-wise, which is obvious)

No, I have not. I don't know if Zet can do the calculations. There is too much to research if you had the time. Comparing Harmonic 8 and 9 was not planned. It was a coincidence.

In your system, what determines exactly which harmonic you are using?

Actually the harmonic points in the 360° circle are present. If the harmonic points in the circle are not drawn, we will not see them.
In the Zet software I use, you can only see four harmonicspoints, as below. I have drawn below the harmonic points with the small red circles. In this harmonic 16 below, one does not see whether Saturn and Uranus are harmonic to each other or not. Therefore, we must also look at harmonic 64 to see if Saturn and Uranus are harmonic.
It could be that we are looking for a planetary picture for example whether the person has NE/PL = SU or not. It is the same procedure.

So that we do not have to check all harmonics, it is also sufficient if we check only harmonic 16,64,256,1024 and 4096. We will also see harmonics in between. Harmonic 4096 we check if the birth time is exact to the minute, except AC,MC and moon. Because moon runs faster and already a change in seconds range will be its place somewhere else.

1-2-4-8-16-32-64-128-256-512-1024-2048-4096-8192-16384-32768-65536

Harmonic 16



Only when we look at harmonic 64, we see saturn and Uranus are exactly harmonic to each other. It could also be that we would only see harmonic 256 or 1024, when they are exact to each other.

Harmonic 64




If we had software like Nova, we would have seen right away in harmonic 16 that Saturn is harmonic with Uranus. In Nova Chart Wheels more harmonic points are drawn with small black dot than Zet, as you can see below.

I only use Nova Chart Wheels when I am looking for planetary pictures in the radix. It is not suitable for the biwheel display. Also, Nova does not calculate progressions at the user rate. And to use Nova I find a bit exhausting.

Harmonic 16

Thank you for the info...

You've given me an idea, and I have to do some checking.

One more question, if I may... how are you working the orbs?

If one allows the extremely wide 2° in the 4th harmonic (for midpoints), we are down to 1-7/8 minutes of arc by the 256th harmonic.

Re: ZET

Why doesn't the author update the dial graphic to incorporate the other harmonic points? Seems like it would have no negative consequences...

I use this orbs;

h-16 10 minutes
h-64 3-4 minutes
h-256 30 seconds
h-1024 3-4 seconds
h-4096 2 seconds

I have written to Zet Software developer a couple of times asking if he could draw more harmonic points. But he did not do it until now. I don't think that Zet will continue to develop, because for a long time there is no update worth mentioning. My astrologer friend wrote to Janus for the harmonic points. Janus does not do it either. I also wrote to Nova about the changes needed to make the software better. They don't do it either.

Now I have also given up.

linchi

i am curious what the purpose was in providing the different navamsa charts on biden?? was this an attempt on your part to communicate something in particular? i can't figure it out.. thanks!

atlantean what do you mean by "Novien"?

you might be referring to something that is better known as a 'novile' aspect, or you are talking about something else? i have never seen this term before - novien... duck duck go search engine reveals nothing on it either! maybe this is a hebrew way to say novile that was picked up in relations with isaac starkman? lord knows, but i am in the dark here, lolol! also - what has happened at noel tyls site, or does it not exist anymore??

also - just for fun for anyone interested... there is a lot of novile, bi-novile and etc type aspects going on in the astro at present.. do a chart for right now to whatever location you live in and follow this by doing a 9th harmonic chart off of it and you will see what i mean... cheers..

Re: Novien

Here is the option in Janus. (just so you don't think I just made it up) lol


It's also an option in the Astro app and in AstrolDeluxe...

Here's a short quote from Jim Eshelman, relating to the Novien, taken from Notes from Cyril Fagan... (from Solunars.com):

"The Hindu Navamsa is identical with the Western "9th Harmonic Chart." The Novien is identical except that it presumes that the zodiac starts at 0° Taurus, rather than 0° Aries. The net effect is that all positions are 120° later in the Novien than in the Navamsa. The idea to shift the starting point to 0° Taurus came from Garth Allen (Donald Bradley), who "suggested that to be consistent the Navamsas, if genuine, should also commence from the beginning of Taurus and not from the beginning of Aries, as is the present custom." Fagan concluded, "Without realizing it, his casual remark led to the unearthing of the long lost kernel of true lunar interpretation, thus adding enormously to the understanding of the effects of the Moon in astrology."

james_m wrote: i am curious what the purpose was in providing the different navamsa charts on biden?? was this an attempt on your part to communicate something in particular? i can't figure it out.

Bidens's chart was chosen at random. I could have taken another one.
I wanted to show that the navamsa is controversial in vedic astrology, otherwise they would have only one navamsa but not four. This may also be that they will have more navamsa variations in the future.
Actually my first post shows that the Navamsa is not meaningful as the vedic astrologers believe and practice. I would recommend to use h-8 (Ashtamsa) instead of h-9 (Navamsa).