Skyscript Astrology Forum

Hi,
I ordered Fagan's Primer of Sidereal Astrology and got it a few days ago. His words are so powerful and eye opening. For example, I didn't know that the Sun in its orbit around the center of the galaxy is moving towards Capricorn. That is the foundation of the sidereal cardinal points, the other three being opposite and at ninety degrees of Capricorn.

I do have a problem visualizing the following: that the Sun's path is to Capricorn and the center of the galaxy is in Sag, which is located righ next to Capricorn. One would expect the center of a circle (of the Sun's path) and the direction of a point on that circle to be at an angle of ninety degrees.

Does anyone have any more info on this matter? On the foundation of the sidereal cardinal points, why it was that Aries was chosen as the staring point and not any of the other three points. This is so fascinating. Links to other threads on this forum where this may be discussed or to Fagan's writing are welcome.

Stijn wrote:

I ordered Fagan's Primer of Sidereal Astrology and got it a few days ago. His words are so powerful and eye opening. For example, I didn't know that the Sun in its orbit around the center of the galaxy is moving towards Capricorn. That is the foundation of the sidereal cardinal points, the other three being opposite and at ninety degrees of Capricorn.

Stijn, I know exactly how you feel. I posed my same excitment to Jim Eshelman several years back and he informed me "Regretabably--not the Solar Apex". Here is a link with our full discussion on this issue.

https://www.solunars.com/viewtopic.php? ... +Apex#p592

Hi Steve,
Thank you so much for the link.
It is too bad that the solar Apex is not heading for zero Capricorn, so the search for foundation of the sidereal cardinal point continues...

Stijn wrote:

It is too bad that the solar Apex is not heading for zero Capricorn, so the search for foundation of the sidereal cardinal point continues...

Fagan/Bradley proved to Western Siderealists where the Cardinal Signs in the Sidereal Zodiac are precisely located, and the Mundane Astrologers in the Fagan/Bradley Sidereal Zodiac system know zero Cap is the Master Mundane chart for each year for any particular location, but as a Sidereal Mundane Astrologer-- what I want to know is WHY---other than it being a Cardinal point. My search for the answer WHY still continues…

Interesting post guys!

Here is what Gary Christen says about the Winter Solstice
https://www.alabe.com/library.html Planetary Pictures: An Introduction

Winter Solstice
---------------------

"In the case of the Sun's ingress into the cardinal signs, it is the entry into Capricorn that is the strongest and most important. This is because the Capricorn ingress is the bottom, or start, of the yearly cycle -- the "midnight" of the year. The winter solstice was the time of the year when the ancient astrologer-priests really earned their pay. It was the time of the longest night, of maximum darkness, and it was marked by fear, trembling and sacrifice.
If the Sun didn't start to move northward, woe be to us all! As soon as ancient astrologers saw that the Sun was starting to rise and set further north and to ride higher in the sky, it was evident that life would go on. After the "death" of the Sun came the rebirth, and celebrations ensued. The job of ancient astrologers was to mark this change -- as evidenced in the Roman festival of Saturnalia."
(Above, these four critical points are described as seen from the Earth's northern hemisphere. In the southern hemisphere, the day lengths and seasons would of course be reversed.)

In some countries, like in India, every house puts a candle in front of their house to signal the victory of light over darkness.


Polaris is our Pole star, situated at the north pole it never sets and as Wikipedia explains Polaris stands almost motionless on the sky, in the Milky Way axis and all the stars of the Northern sky appear to rotate around it, including the TNO's. By 2095, it will be only 26'30" away from the North Pole, only to recede in favor of other stars in the same area.

This motionless position of Polaris is probably the star in the sky tropicalists and siderealists should agree upon!

New Eshelman material Stijn on the link I provided.

Re: "...what I want to know is WHY---other than it being a Cardinal point."

At first, I would have ventured to guess that 0° Cardinals brings things drastically public, ie. automatic into the fore-foreground... ie. that the Ingresses based on these positions automatically would show what is obvious to be seen in that locality

HOWEVER, it has been shown that it is the VERNAL POINT, ie. TROPICAL 0° Cardinal, is where this happens; which leaves me also scratching my head as to WHY the sidereal Cardinal Ingresses are so obviously correct.

It's like it makes perfect sense and is a complete paradox at the same time!

Atlantean wrote:

HOWEVER, it has been shown that it is the VERNAL POINT, ie. TROPICAL 0° Cardinal, is where this happens; which leaves me also scratching my head as to WHY the sidereal Cardinal Ingresses are so obviously correct.

It's like it makes perfect sense and is a complete paradox at the same time!

Exactly! I am hoping the Webb Telescope can shed some light on this issue.

Me too!

There has to be an actual reason. (but that doesn't mean we're automatically developed enough to fully understand it)

I hope we do find some further information that makes sense. Additionally, it seems like understanding that reason, might inform us of a few other fundamental truths in Astrology. (like the houses )

Atlantean wrote:

HOWEVER, it has been shown that it is the VERNAL POINT, ie. TROPICAL 0° Cardinal, is where this happens; which leaves me also scratching my head as to WHY the sidereal Cardinal Ingresses are so obviously correct.

I would suggest that the SVP Capricorn ingress may not be as significant as it appears to be. For years I've been using the Monthly Krishnamurti ingress with positive results. Recently Linchi has compared this monthly ingress with the sidereal K Capricorn ingress with his methods and found them equal in effect. It's true that it is the Tropical vernal point that should be the most effective. (This is another research topic, considering that the solstice/equinox cycle should be effective apart from any zodiac effect.)

At any rate ingress charts bring up the ayanamsa question. We know that (I think it is Bradley?) who adjusted Lahiri by six minutes to obtain the SVP (synetic vernal point). Mr. K.S. Krishnamurti also adjusted Lahiri by six minutes (approx., I don't have the precise value here at the moment...), but a day earlier. This gives solar ingress charts very close to SVP ingress charts with only the Moon making a significant difference. The difference between the SVP and K ayanamsas is 59 minutes, almost a degree, which is why solar ingress charts are so close.

Astrologers who use the SVP ingress will have noted that on this forum only the Krishnamruti ayanamsa is being used by careful researchers such as Martin Gansten and Linchi. Richard Houck (The Astrology of Death) also decided upon (essentially) the K ayanamsa with only a few minutes difference. Ronnie Dryer has also chosen this ayanamsa as I have, based on the research of monthly ingress charts and planet signs in navamsa charts.

Somewhere here on Skyscript I had posted some monthly ingress charts for earthquakes comparing Krishnamurti with SVP. But the charts were erased and have to be replaced. I'll try to re-post the charts within a day or two and post a link here. I think the time has come to seriously compare the SVP and Krishnamurti ayanamsas. Fagan school astrologers have rejected Lahiri for ingress charts, and I agree. They don't work. However, Krishnamurti ingress charts appear to be highly significant.

Therese,

It sounded like heresy (what you said ), but I have great respect for linchi's work and thought that if he's using Krishnamurti with his exacting methods, it's more than at least worth looking at.

I grabbed a random event (the bombing of Hiroshima) and did the sidereal lunar return. ie. the month chart

It should show the right planets angular for the event.

With Fagan-Bradley, it's Jupiter and Venus angular, which on the face of it, seems wrong! lol There is the Moon opposite Saturn that siderealists likely (and Siderealists surely) would try to hang the event on.

With Krishnamurti, it's Mars and Pluto, which on the face of it, seems quite appropriate for a military attack with nuclear weapons.

So, whatever the score was... add one point for Krishnamurti

Atlantean wrote:

With Krishnamurti, it's Mars and Pluto, which on the face of it, seems quite appropriate for a military attack with nuclear weapons.

So, whatever the score was... add one point for Krishnamurti

In my opinion the research that supposedly supports the SVP isn't nearly so solid as practitioners believe. Bradley's research in particular is very old and as far as I can tell the raw data isn't available. Also his research has been questioned (Tests of Astrology, Dean, et al), and we have newer research on the Mesopotamian zodiac which I have in hard copy. Beginning stars of the zodiac are found in ancient documents, but there is no degree notation for Alderbaran or Antares. Only the beginnings of zodiac signs were considered to be important.

I should add that my study of sidereal astrology began with Kenneth Bowser and friends in the San Francisco area in the 1970s. So I'm a past user of the SVP. But further research supported the Krishnamurti ayanamsa. The SVP fails in the navamsa and other Indian varga charts.