Skyscript Astrology Forum

I am researching the history of the use of lunar nodes in astrology for a forthcoming talk and likely later paper on the subject.

One of the topics that intrigues me is if the current focus on karma and reincarnation in regards Rahu and Ketu is a recent phenomena in Jyotish or not?

While karma and reincarnation are basic to Hindiusm it cannot be axiomatically assumed that these ideas were attributed especially to Rahu and Ketu in traditional Jyotish texts.

Going back a few decades for example books like ''Light on Life: An Introduction to the Astrology of India'' by Hart De Fouw, and Dr. Robert Svoboda,state that karma is something that should be examined in the whole horoscope. I have come across other modern books that attribute karma to specific houses or Saturn.

In Chris Brennan's astrology podcast with Ronnie Dreyer in February 2021 entitled ''The Early History and Meanings of the Nodes in Astrology'' it was noted that none of the older texts examined supported the notion of linking Rahu and Ketu especially to Karma and previous lives. Indeed the nodes dont seem to get a mention at all in early texts like Brihat Jatika, Brihat Samhita or Sarvali. While Var??hamihira does mention Ketu in the Brihat Samhita it is solely in relation to comets not the nodes.

Here is the link to the podcast:

https://theastrologypodcast.com/2021/02 ... astrology/

Chris Brennan put over the theory that ironically the ''Karmic'' interpretation of the Rahu and Ketu came from 1970s figures in western astrology like Martin Shulman in his book The Moon's Nodes and Reincarnation (1975)

Moreover, Chris Brennan strongly put over his belief that the source linking the nodes heavily to karma and reincarnation in Jyotish was the British based Jyotishi Komilla Sutton in her book ''The Lunar Nodes: Crisis and Redemption'' (2001).

Ronnie Dreyer was a little more cautious to accept Brennan's view and pointed out Indian astrology was not monolithic and that there were lineages in Jyotish transmitted orally that may not show up in the texts.

So I suppose there are two questions.

Is Brennan correct that the particular focus on karma and reincarnation linked to Rahu and Ketu is a recent phenomenon not supported in the older texts?

If we accept Brennan's basic notion is he also correct that Komilla Sutton is the likely source of this cross fertilisation into Jyotish or could that process have started much earlier?

I am aware of figures in the early 20th century N Chidambaram Iyer,
and Suryanarain Rao who were astrologers and Indian Theosophists. Both interacted with English Theosophist astrologers like Alan Leo. Although, despite Leo's belief in karma and reincarnation he doesn't seem to have been very interested in the nodes and didn't focus on them in regards karma.

I confess I am still to study the large corpus of writings by B.V. Raman who certainly encountered western astrology. Raman was of course the grandson of Suryanarain Rao.

Any views?

Thanks

Mark

Well, you can't prove a negative, so it's not impossible that there was an oral tradition (or a lost text, etc.) linking the nodes specifically to past lives, but I'd say it's highly improbable, precisely because the entire nativity has traditionally been interpreted in the light of karma and rebirth in South Asia (and the nodes played a rather small part for the first few centuries of that tradition). I should say that I haven't read Sutton's book, but no classical text I know, nor any writings I can recall by Rao, Raman or others of the 20th-century Indian authors, make that connection with the nodes. I too have always assumed it to originate with Martin Schulman.

I have an old paper on the relationship between astrology and karma theory (though not on the nodes) here:
https://martingansten.com/pdf/ReshapingKarma2011.pdf

I also dealt with it to some extent in a more recent book review here:
https://journals.co.za/doi/pdf/10.36886 ... 2021.6.1.8

The latter is not Open Access, unfortunately, but I'm happy to share it offline if anyone is interested.

Martin Gansten wrote:

I also dealt with it to some extent in a more recent book review here:
https://journals.co.za/doi/pdf/10.36886 ... 2021.6.1.8

The latter is not Open Access, unfortunately, but I'm happy to share it offline if anyone is interested.

Martin, I'd like a copy. Please use my eastwest9 email address. Thanks.

I also dealt with it to some extent in a more recent book review here:
https://journals.co.za/doi/pdf/10.36886 ... 2021.6.1.8

Hello Martin,
Also interested by your book review.
I sent you a PM

Thank you,
Ouranos

mark

maybe this is me speaking my mind without thinking too much... the moon is associated with the past.. the concept of karma is about the past.. so their is a direct connection between the moon and the past, or karma... perhaps that is how the nodes tie into this concept of karma, as they are the nodes of the moon... moving from the past - ketu to the future - rahu... it is all symbolism and we are left to our own devices on how to find meaning in it all... one can't get this from books as i see it.. perhaps a spiritual guru or teacher or someone with some special insights could help unravel it..

my 2 c's...

when is the talk on tuesday? how do i access it? i am going to have to break down and visit facebook, or is it in the news bulletin section of skyscript? thanks.. james

here it is... found it via fb... what a cesspool, but because so many use it - what to do? lol.. i am saving anyone last minute here the agony of going to fb.. i am calling fb how i see it..

https://isarastrology.org/event/deciphe ... -approach/

Sorry to conduct this exchange on the public forum, but I don't think the PM function is working properly. Ouranos (and anyone else): please send an email instead. Thanks.

James_M wrote:

mark

maybe this is me speaking my mind without thinking too much... the moon is associated with the past.. the concept of karma is about the past.. so their is a direct connection between the moon and the past, or karma... perhaps that is how the nodes tie into this concept of karma, as they are the nodes of the moon... moving from the past - ketu to the future - rahu... it is all symbolism and we are left to our own devices on how to find meaning in it all... one can't get this from books as i see it.. perhaps a spiritual guru or teacher or someone with some special insights could help unravel it..

Hi James, There is no shortage of ideas and speculations on the lunar nodes. However, my focus is more historical and textual. The idea the nodes are linked to past/future originally stems from Dane Rudhyar in his 1936 book 'The Astrology of Personality''. Rudhyar was also the first to hint at a karmic/reincarnation angle to the nodes in that same book. Paradoxically, the increasing focus on reincarnation in regards the nodes in Indian astrology (See Komilla Sutton's book on the Lunar nodes) may be a cross fertilsation from western astrology tradition into India. The older Indian texts dont seem to support this interpretation.

After my talk last night when I highlighted the numerous competing traditions the host (who is a western Jyotishi) made an interesting reference reported in Hart De Fouw, and Robert Svoboda's book' Light on Life''. The authors report a story of someone going to an accomplished teacher/guru and stating they found Rahu/Ketu confusing. The teacher responded this was only natural as these points were after all created from a demon which sought to to spread confusion, and discord! I must track down my copy to find the actual story.

Mark

thanks mark

i hope your talk was rewarding for you and everyone who got to enjoy it... i pulled up light on life and couldn't find any passage like that... it is a bit of a motivator for reading the book again.. i found it a very good book to read.. hopefully some of it sank in!! cheers james

if i find the passage, i'll let you know...

Re: "The idea the nodes are linked to past/future originally stems from Dane Rudhyar in his 1936 book 'The Astrology of Personality''. Rudhyar was also the first to hint at a karmic/reincarnation angle to the nodes in that same book."

So, you're saying that there are no older, vedic sources that connect the Nodes (Rahu/Ketu) with reincarnation and karma???

[grabs popcorn]

Atlantean wrote:

Re: "The idea the nodes are linked to past/future originally stems from Dane Rudhyar in his 1936 book 'The Astrology of Personality''. Rudhyar was also the first to hint at a karmic/reincarnation angle to the nodes in that same book." [quoting Mark]

So, you're saying that there are no older, vedic sources that connect the Nodes (Rahu/Ketu) with reincarnation and karma???

I've done a quick survey of Rudhyar's book, and could only find his words on the nodes linked to the past and future (nothing on karma or reincarnation), but the book is 537 pages and has no index.

I think it's very important to check sources for all the newer concepts that are appearing in today's texts. The astrological doctrines of eastern and western astrology are starting to become hopelessly muddled, though initially the foundations of these systems were similar. What passes for 'Vedic' astrology today is a mixture of sidereal concepts from India and tropical add-ons from astrologers initially trained in the west. This is the hybrid new students are being told is India's astrology.

Martin Gansten wrote:

... the entire nativity has traditionally been interpreted in the light of karma and rebirth in South Asia (and the nodes played a rather small part for the first few centuries of that tradition). I should say that I haven't read Sutton's book, but no classical text I know, nor any writings I can recall by Rao, Raman or others of the 20th-century Indian authors, make that connection with the nodes. I too have always assumed it to originate with Martin Schulman.

Martin Gansten is correct is what he wrote above. I have a two volume text of almost 1000 pages by P. S. Sastri which is an exhaustive compilation of traditional Indian astrology. (Text Book of Scientific Hindu Astrology, Ranjan Publications, 2004) This book has a 25 page chapter on Rahu and Ketu which surveys classical texts. There isn't a single mention of Rahu and Ketu being related to past, future or karma and reincarnation. The chapter is all about the effects of the nodes in relation to planets, aspects and houses supported by a number of birth charts.

I've done a survey of books in my library on the nodes since George White authored The Moon's Nodes in 1927 through Prash Trivedi's The Key of Life (2002) and will try to write another post on concepts that developed from these books.

Quick Survey of Books on the Lunar Nodes

The earliest book I’ve seen on the nodes is George White’s The Moon’s Nodes, American Federation of Astrologers, 1927. (74 pages). He builds a case for the north node enhancing progress and reputation in life, and the south node bringing discredit and disgrace. He mentions the recent birth of the royal princess (Elizabeth) and the presence of the south node on her ascendant. Today he would be surprised to see her 70 year reign as queen of England.

The next book is Dane Rudhyar’s The Astrology of Personality, Lucas Publishing, 1936. He equates the Moon’s north node with the future and destiny (Divine will), work to be done and the south node with the past and human will, the path of least resistance. So we can credit Rudhyar for the concepts of past and future in relation to the Moon’s nodes.

The next book is Martin Shulman’s The Moon’s Nodes and Reincarnation (1975). I don’t have this book or can’t locate it. But as others have pointed out, this is the source text for linking the Moon's nodes to reincarnation.

Mohan Koparkar’s Lunar Nodes (Mohan Enterprises, 1977) apparently picked up the reincarnation concept from Shulman. Although born in India, Koparkar was educated in the United States. The cover of his book blatantly states: North Node: Karmic distribution, energy into this life; South Node; Inlet of karma from past life, reincarnation.

The karmic reincarnation concept saw full flower in two of Manik Chand Jain’s books, Rahu and Ketu in Predictive Astrology (Astrological Publications, 1978) and Karmic Control Planets (Astrological Publications, 1980). Jain was born and raised in India, but traveled to America and other countries lecturing and teaching. I knew him personally in the 1980s and attended his workshops. He freely copied sentences and paragraphs from other writers without giving credit, and had help from western students writing and editing his books. That is why the language in his books is usually very good for an Indian author.

The next book I have in my library is Prash Trivedi’s The Key of Life, Astrology of the Lunar Nodes. (India: Sagar Publicatons, 2002) An Indian by birth and through his growing up years in India, Trivedi would have been aware of any oral tradition linking the nodes to karma and reincarnation. He does not mention this link in his book, but instead covers notes from the classics on the nature of the Moon’s nodes.

For example in India both nodes have been linked to unpleasant incidents, negative psychic phenomenon, strange and incurable diseases and deep rooted psychological disorders, which Trivedi says he has found true in his experience (page 19). Trivedi says that in his opinion Rahu/north node combines the traits of Uranus and Neptune while Ketu/south node seems to act like Pluto. He mentions the positive spiritual side of Ketu as Ketu has been linked to the soul’s liberation from earth life.

So any nodal book later than Trivedi’s exhaustive and excellent text is likely drawing on these earlier books or plowing new ground. Trivedi’s book is the only text that is wholly from India, though in a survey he does mention a few concepts from western texts as a comparison to India’s traditional teachings. His bibliography contains only Indian texts.

Arthyr W. Chadbourne in his book 'Ancient Whispers from Chaldea' introduces the concept of the Nodes in Babylonian Astrology.
The Egyptians refered to the Node as 'The Hidden One' in Heaven, the most powerful heavenly force because during an eclipse of the Sun the Moon conjoined the Sun at the Nodal point and appeared to shut off its light. They were menacing occurences so much that for 100 days after a solar eclipse, a substitute king silently ruled the country in place of the real king. So long for the Queen who never ruled UK and always acted as a substitute.
Nearly forty percent of the tablets Enuma Anu Enlil are devoted to the discussion of eclipses and their omina.

This whole concept of the Nodes is there to remind us that no human being is an island.
Suffice to say that Alfred Witte keywords for the Nodes are 'Union. Connections. Relationships. The common link. Network. Limit, boundary or border relations.' Crossing the line, it can be easy to say that 'every relationship is karmic.'

In his book 'Le Grand Livre de la Synergologie', Philippe Turchet says:

'Mathias Brand, professor at the University of Duisburg-Essen in Germany, showed how the body tells the brain what to choose and how the delay between a bodily message and a conscious and articulated message can in some cases exceed 60 seconds. By observing bodies, recent scientific experiments show us that our bodies often make decisions before we are aware of them. It's like Spielberg's science fiction film 'Minority Report' where murderers are arrested and sentenced for a crime they have not yet committed.
The Nodes can represent that 'indefinable element' in us that pushes us in different circumstances towards people who will determine the course of our lives.'

Chadbourne goes on to say that 'when a client is in a state of indecision, you may observe that the minor or tertiary lunar progressed Node is changing directions. If this is the case, look to the planet in the direction that the Node is traveling for a clue to your client's solution.'
A nodal point in physics relates to the zero point in a system. In mathematics, it is the point at which a continuously curved line crosses itself. The Node is defined as 'the intersection or terminating point of two or more lines or curves". Egyptians viewed existence in this fashion. They saw all existence as different combinations of intersecting energy patterns that permeated the universe.'

In this sense, the Nodes may represent 'pre-existing archetypes' as defined by Rupert Sheldrake's treatise on pre-existing archetypes which are genetically coded in our body.
Does Nature Have a Hidden Memory?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j3a9BB ... Williamson

As discussed with you some time ago Therese, with my Sun conjunct the South Node, I had during my first Nodal return an 'out-of-the-body' experience and you rightfully pointed out that it was similar to what some yogis experience in India.
The Nodes can represent our 'astral body' and show us how we are connected to the Universe.