Skyscript Astrology Forum

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Hi

In the excellent article above Chris Brennan talks about Princess's Diana when her malefic Mars was activated.
However,Mars isn't directly related to the 8th house of manner of death, though it's ruler is there.
Would you have been able to predict her accident in spite of the lack of indications?
Thanks

Mars was not activated actually. It had been active when present in the Vir L1 and it continued to be active. The loosening of the bond jumped from Vir to Pis, ruled by the lord of life, benefic Jupiter.

However, Jupiter is conj L8, the Moon. Furthermore, Pis is actually the Deadly Place, and this is compounded by the fact that malefic Mars regards it by opposition. Still, this does NOT necessarily mean death, since danger of accidents and death is never judged from a single method.

I like Valens but sometimes when you read his calculation methods, you get the feeling that he is reporting from other sources and the multiplication methods he is reporting makes you think 'Which one is worth pursuing?' Not helping also that he does not provide a lot of examples. Another problem in the Zodiacal Releasing is that you end up with so many sub sub with rulers and planets in signs that makes it difficult to get a clear picture of what is active. It is a system that cannot be used by itself. It has to be connected to Primary Directions, Profections, Solar Return or some other kind of indications in the chart.

Giuseppe Bezza and Marco Fumagalli have written an article 'Death of a princess, Lady Diana' in Astral Language 109, Dec 1997.
http://www.cieloeterra.it/articoli.prin ... pessa.html

Here is what I would look at

1) Go to Astro Fox 0.8 https://af.cpptea.com/astrofox.php?
There you can get a good grasp at what a natal chart looks like in terms of Hyleg, Anareta and Almuten with the method of Ptolemy.
For Lady Diana, you see that
- Sun = Hyleg Day chart and Angular
- Mars = In House 8th, a malefic in a Day chart and conjunct the NN, ruling the 4th (the end of things) and in detriment of JU ruling the ASC. Not respecting his hairesis a masculine planet in a feminine sign (Virgo).
- The Lot of Hyleg conjunct Jupiter L1 and opposite Fortuna.

2) Look at Primary Directions

She died on August 31, 1997, at the age of 36 years and 2 months, when the Sun reached the parallel declination of Mars and the equidistance of Mars, acquired in the figure of direction (see the chart above). The geniture is diurnal and the Sun is in the seventh place, which is aphetic place; therefore the Sun rightfully holds the dominion over life, and is the aphet of this figure.
The direction of the Sun in Leo is in the bound of Mars. Sun is the apheta in the chart and has been in the bound of Mars since the end of 1994.
In her natal chart Mars conjunct the NN is in the eighth house.

3) Look at the bounds

- The Sun is travelling in the bound of Mars for 3 years and 6 months and we know that the Sun hyleg in the chart is under the influence of Mars during that time and a nocturnal star in a day chart contradicts its Sect.
The stars that corrupt prevail over those who save. In this example the malefics prevail in number because: the Sun is in the bound of Mars; Mars forms two figures in succession to the Sun; a star of nature Mars competes; neither figures nor testimonies of benefits appear. (from the article of Bezza and Fumagalli).
- The antiparallel of declination of the Moon to the Sun and Mars is not helping. When a luminary is apheta, if the other luminary concurs closely (the commonly accepted amplitude is three degrees) to any future encounter, it means the greatness, the strength, the importance of the event to come.

4) Look at the Firdaria (Planetary Periods)

Check Robert Hand article 'Planetary Periods in Western Astrology' https://www.arhatmedia.com/firdar2.htm
She died at 36 years 2 months (60 days)
For a day chart, she had just entered MO/MA influence at the age of 36 years 52 days. Note that both Moon and Mars are Out of Sect planets in her chart.
Quote from Hand based on 'Three Books on the Judgment of Nativities from Johannes Schoener
"Moon-Mars. In this division there will be fears, griefs, and great troubles for the native; a part of his substance will be destroyed; he will surrender what he has acquired; if he makes a journey, there will happen to him trouble because of what he has, and fear because of the bite of a serpent, migraines or pain in the middle of the head, fear because of fire; and he will escape from it; he will be afflicted by a grave illness so that he comes to danger of death; he will have an illness in his sight, great evil and pain in his genitals. And if with all of this, the Moon has dominion in the revolution of the year, these significations will be the more impressed upon [the native]; however on the whole his status will improve after this division has been completed. And if the nativity is nocturnal, there will happen to the native many and diverse infirmities in the eyes, in the stomach and in the lower parts of the body; [there will happen] the bite of some reptile, a burning of fire or boiling water, or something else that is hot; part of what he owns will be taken from him, and some of his servants will do evil to him."

5) Solar Return 1997
Libra rising conjunct SR Mars in Libra (Detriment) ruling the SR 8th T-square natal Sun (Hyleg) ruling the natal 8th intercepted and SR and natal Fortuna.
This confirms everything said above.

Hi Ouranus,

Robert Zoller in his Diploma Course made a good point that princess Diana was born some minutes later. He matched her death to the direction of the body of Saturn to the Asc. After studying her life, I can confirm that she was indeed born some minutes later. In fact, with the rectified time, the Sun opposes the Asc by antiscion from the 8th house, which is one indication for a shorter longevity.

Regarding the Giver of Life, it is not the Sun according to the theory: it is in a feminine quadrant and feminine image. After checking with events, the empirical GOL is the Lot of Fortune. Natally it is scrutinized by Jupiter by opposition. In the SR of death, the configuration was repeated and Jupiter is LoY and natally L4 as well as lord of the Deadly Place.

I would like to add to your excellent analysis that the Moon in the 1997 SR is adhering the natal Lot of Death, with the Moon being the L1 Firdaria lord. And as you explained, the SR Asc is afflicted, the Sun is also afflicted.

I like Valens but sometimes when you read his calculation methods, you get the feeling that he is reporting from other sources and the multiplication methods he is reporting makes you think 'Which one is worth pursuing?' Not helping also that he does not provide a lot of examples. Another problem in the Zodiacal Releasing is that you end up with so many sub sub with rulers and planets in signs that makes it difficult to get a clear picture of what is active. It is a system that cannot be used by itself. It has to be connected to Primary Directions, Profections, Solar Return or some other kind of indications in the chart.

I agree about ZR from Fortune. It does require other techniques. However, this is not the case with ZR from Spirit, although there are charts where ZR is not telling and one has to look elsewhere.

Lastly, I don't use Ptolemy for Giver of Life because he severely limits the house placement. I mean there are so many cases of people with empirical Hyleg under the horizon, which Ptolemy does not allow.

Blessings back at you!

Thank you Zagata,
I do believe that death or any other important event in our life will show up in different ways. And your analysis or the one from Zoller is as good as Bezza. Depending about the method you choose as well.
More research needs to be done with the Lots as they tell more than what we are trained to believe.
For any method, if the consistency prevails then it becomes reliable.
As an example, Secondary Progressions rarely fail with the Sun in aspect to the planets and the NM/FM/Quarter Moons pulsating 7 years cycle in our life. Or even the change of direction of a planet R or D.
And of course, in any chart, multiple factors will lead to certainty, when they pile up. As astrologers we are trained by cookbooks, one aspect means this but when we start to think like OK this aspect with this aspect and this position and so on that's when the pieces of the puzzle start to get together.

Not to forget that we have to translate what Middle Eastern astrologers meant. To quote Robert Hand 'We must keep in mind that we do not practice Western astrology; we practice Middle Eastern astrology. There is no Western astrology, except possibly 20th-century and New Age astrology."
If we can convey a small percentage of the tradition that is already good.

Best to you,
Ouranos

Ouranos wrote:To quote Robert Hand 'We must keep in mind that we do not practice Western astrology; we practice Middle Eastern astrology. There is no Western astrology, except possibly 20th-century and New Age astrology."

Great minds think alike. Do you have a source for that quotation?

Do you have a source for that quotation?

Yes Martin, in Google type 'tore lombsdalen a conversation with Robert Hand' and it will lead to a PDF document on the website https://www.astrolom.no
Many more in the articles section

Indeed, some of them in a Scandinavian tongue. Thanks. I've been making the same point (about there being no 'western' astrology in any meaningful sense of the word until quite late) for a long time, though I think Rob Hand's brush strokes here were rather too broad. But of course the context seems to have been a fairly informal conversation.

For any method, if the consistency prevails then it becomes reliable.
As an example, Secondary Progressions rarely fail with the Sun in aspect to the planets and the NM/FM/Quarter Moons pulsating 7 years cycle in our life. Or even the change of direction of a planet R or D.

Thank you for the informative post, Ouranus. Yes, in addition to secondary progressions, I have some cases with accurately rectified time of birth where a given major event is timed not by a primary direction sequence, but by a solar arc direction.

Not to forget that we have to translate what Middle Eastern astrologers meant. To quote Robert Hand 'We must keep in mind that we do not practice Western astrology; we practice Middle Eastern astrology. There is no Western astrology, except possibly 20th-century and New Age astrology."
If we can convey a small percentage of the tradition that is already good.

That is an excellent quote that Westerners need to keep in mind. I have been surpised and somewhat even appalled by their false sense of superiority as well as their ignorance about this. Here in Bulgaria we have a distinct advantage thanks to the pioneering role of Fiodor Gruzinev who published many traditional astrological books decades before the creation of Project Hindsight. Bulgarian astrologer Dimitar Kojuharov tried to get James Holden to include Gruzinev in his huge book Biographical Dictionary of Western Astrologers, but unfortunately it did not happen.

And Rumen Kolev has translated books by Regiomontanus, Gaurico, etc.

In addition to the Perso-Arabic books as translated by Ben Dykes, I recommend astrologers to study this tradition from an Eastern people as well, namely the Indians (they call it Tajika), because they have preserved some doctrines and subtleties. There are some books written by modern Indian astrologers that explain the annual charts system. And there is also of course the valuable contribution of Martin Gansten with his huge translation (for free!) of a classical book on the subject, as well his articles and his predictive book, which I have and recommend in my video on the Zodiacs.

For those that would like to know more about Fiodor Gruzinov, I published an article on my website about his pioneering contribution to the astrological community:

https://www.100percentastrology.com/fio ... astrology/

Interesting comments guys.
Thanks a lot

Ouranos wrote:I like Valens but sometimes when you read his calculation methods, you get the feeling that he is reporting from other sources and the multiplication methods he is reporting makes you think 'Which one is worth pursuing?' Not helping also that he does not provide a lot of examples. Another problem in the Zodiacal Releasing is that you end up with so many sub sub with rulers and planets in signs that makes it difficult to get a clear picture of what is active. It is a system that cannot be used by itself. It has to be connected to Primary Directions, Profections, Solar Return or some other kind of indications in the chart.

Giuseppe Bezza and Marco Fumagalli have written an article 'Death of a princess, Lady Diana' in Astral Language 109, Dec 1997.
http://www.cieloeterra.it/articoli.prin ... pessa.html

Here is what I would look at

1) Go to Astro Fox 0.8 https://af.cpptea.com/astrofox.php?
There you can get a good grasp at what a natal chart looks like in terms of Hyleg, Anareta and Almuten with the method of Ptolemy.

For Lady Diana, you see that
- Sun = Hyleg Day chart and Angular
- Mars = In House 8th, a malefic in a Day chart and conjunct the NN, ruling the 4th (the end of things) and in detriment of JU ruling the ASC. Not respecting his hairesis a masculine planet in a feminine sign (Virgo).
- The Lot of Hyleg conjunct Jupiter L1 and opposite Fortuna.

2) Look at Primary Directions

She died on August 31, 1997, at the age of 36 years and 2 months, when the Sun reached the parallel declination of Mars and the equidistance of Mars, acquired in the figure of direction (see the chart above). The geniture is diurnal and the Sun is in the seventh place, which is aphetic place; therefore the Sun rightfully holds the dominion over life, and is the aphet of this figure.
The direction of the Sun in Leo is in the bound of Mars. Sun is the apheta in the chart and has been in the bound of Mars since the end of 1994.
In her natal chart Mars conjunct the NN is in the eighth house.

3) Look at the bounds

- The Sun is travelling in the bound of Mars for 3 years and 6 months and we know that the Sun hyleg in the chart is under the influence of Mars during that time and a nocturnal star in a day chart contradicts its Sect.
The stars that corrupt prevail over those who save. In this example the malefics prevail in number because: the Sun is in the bound of Mars; Mars forms two figures in succession to the Sun; a star of nature Mars competes; neither figures nor testimonies of benefits appear. (from the article of Bezza and Fumagalli).
- The antiparallel of declination of the Moon to the Sun and Mars is not helping. When a luminary is apheta, if the other luminary concurs closely (the commonly accepted amplitude is three degrees) to any future encounter, it means the greatness, the strength, the importance of the event to come.

4) Look at the Firdaria (Planetary Periods)

Check Robert Hand article 'Planetary Periods in Western Astrology' https://www.arhatmedia.com/firdar2.htm
She died at 36 years 2 months (60 days)
For a day chart, she had just entered MO/MA influence at the age of 36 years 52 days. Note that both Moon and Mars are Out of Sect planets in her chart.
Quote from Hand based on 'Three Books on the Judgment of Nativities from Johannes Schoener
"Moon-Mars. In this division there will be fears, griefs, and great troubles for the native; a part of his substance will be destroyed; he will surrender what he has acquired; if he makes a journey, there will happen to him trouble because of what he has, and fear because of the bite of a serpent, migraines or pain in the middle of the head, fear because of fire; and he will escape from it; he will be afflicted by a grave illness so that he comes to danger of death; he will have an illness in his sight, great evil and pain in his genitals. And if with all of this, the Moon has dominion in the revolution of the year, these significations will be the more impressed upon [the native]; however on the whole his status will improve after this division has been completed. And if the nativity is nocturnal, there will happen to the native many and diverse infirmities in the eyes, in the stomach and in the lower parts of the body; [there will happen] the bite of some reptile, a burning of fire or boiling water, or something else that is hot; part of what he owns will be taken from him, and some of his servants will do evil to him."

5) Solar Return 1997
Libra rising conjunct SR Mars in Libra (Detriment) ruling the SR 8th T-square natal Sun (Hyleg) ruling the natal 8th intercepted and SR and natal Fortuna.
This confirms everything said above.

Good but it ignores DST which is a shame if you want to draw American charts