Skyscript Astrology Forum

i know.. it might not sound like anything astrological, but i feel it is a subject worth talking about...

my impression is we live in an increasingly polarized world... i can think of 3 major world events that have only created more polarization as opposed to less..

trump in 2016
covid in 2020
ukraine-russia in 2022

talking about this in an astrological forum is tricky as invariably people bring their viewpoints, however gotten, to the forum and it does come thru in the astrology as much as people would like to leave the ideological angles out of it..

the way i see it - news / propaganda is set up in such a way where one is not encouraged to have different viewpoints, or for there to be any discussion on any number of topics which directly interface with our interest in, and love of astrology.. keep to the astrology and be fully objective, but how does one do that?

how do cultures and societies foster greater receptivity and consideration for alternative viewpoints?? astrology is an alternative viewpoint in itself that historically many people have willingly ignored or scoffed at... if we do the same, we aren't much different...

how do others define this quandary astrologically? in my limited thinking i know that the 2 planets saturn and uranus, when in hard aspect - as they were in the past few years - certainly adds to this tension and polarization, but i am seeing this on a number of other levels too, then the ones listed up above... and it seems ongoing, as opposed to being over with the saturn-uranus square now past..

politically correct, woke, tokenism, and etc. etc.. topics like sexual rights and identify, transgenderism and etc. etc. - they are all capable of creating huge dividing lines among people and perhaps the worst aspect of it all is how many people stop communicating with others..

"they say" talking about politics and religion is not a good idea around company.. i was told this when i was young, but apparently never really learned the lesson well..

i think what astrology really ought to do is encourage and foster a receptivity to alternative viewpoints and not ostracize others for having them.. in this regard i think skyscript is a supportive community... rant over, lol..

There is no doubt that Donald Trump has almost single handedly created a deep divide in the American political scene, but this divide is limited to the United States. The Covid pandemic can be seen as unifying rather than divisive. The entire world had the same concern of working to find ways to treat and find cures for Covid before half the population of the earth became ill or died from the virus. Nations co-operated and helped each other in this universal effort.

The Covid pandemic roughly correlated with Saturn’s transit of tropical Aquarius/sidereal Capricorn. And I can’t say this firmly enough:

Tropical Aquarius and Sidereal Capricorn are the SAME sign with two different labels.

Why is this?? Because in our age (except for a few degrees of overlap--the end of tropical signs and the beginning of sidereal signs), these two signs occupy exactly the same area of the sky. How can they possibly be different?

How does the symbolism of Saturn’s transit fit this area of the sky? I found I had to go back to early authors on tropical Aquarius to explain the relevant symbolism that can so easily be shifted to sidereal Capricorn. I’m always grateful that I saved books from my early tropical days. Here is a sampling for tropical Aquarius:

Aquarius signifies mankind in general
Attracted to societies, groups, associations, movements

Charles E.O. Carter, The Principles of Astrology, 1925, revised 1963, pp. 78-79

Sign of brotherhood and fraternity
Aquarius operates as equals among equals
Security depends on being in the company of others
Sympathy for human problems

Frances Sakoian and Louis S. Acker, The Astrologer’s Handbook, 1973, p. 49

Social interaction is important for Aquarius.
Needs a group with which to identify
Sign of the humanitarian
Commits itself to society

Robert Hand, Horoscope Symbols, 1981, pp. 236-237.

Why from the sidereal point of view do these traits fit so well to a sign whose label is Capricorn? Stepping on to my sidereal platform:

Number Symbolism: Capricorn is the 10th sign of the zodiac, a return to the unity of One again but with the addition of universal experience from numbers 1-9. Thus ten can represent the principle of unity, a final synthesis expressed in an awareness of social and universal concerns.

Saturnian Myth: After being removed from power by Zeus The Greek Cronus fled to the land which later became Rome. Cronus (now known as Saturn) brought the wild, frightened and antagonistic tribes together, teaching them how to share and live together in harmony in communities. The reign of Saturn was known as the Golden Age.

As sidereal Capricorn, tropical Aquarius is concerned with social equality which reflects the ancient mythology of Saturn. Saturn as a planet is most comfortable with everyone placed on the same level. It has no use for kingship, one person having power over others. (See the poor logic in considering Saturn ruled tropical Capricorn as the sign related to business, politics, and the climb to the top. These belong to Jupiter ruled sidereal Sagittarius in tropical Capricorn's sky area.) Robert Hand called Uranus “trans-social and highly individualistic??? which is why in Horoscope Symbols he said Uranus was a poor match for tropical Aquarius.

Saturn entered tropical Aquarius in late March of 2020, and went retrograde into Capricorn from July 2020 to mid December 2020. In March of 2020 WHO officially declared the COVID-19 outbreak a pandemic. On March 18, 2023 the leader of the World Health Organization stated that he expects the organization to declare an end to the COVID-19 pandemic later this year because statistics on the virus keep declining. Saturn left tropical Aquarius that month and entered Pisces.

Saturn’s transit of sidereal Capricorn began earlier in late January of 2020 and lasted until January of 2023.

hi therese

this is a popular topic of yours and i have read you talking about it before - tropical verses sidereal signs...

regarding the topic of covid and its timing, i like andre barbaults prediction from 2014 or whenever it was exactly where he suggested that the 3 outer planets coming together - jupiter/saturn and pluto was suggestive of a pandemic..

of course, i tend to think of planets as the energy sources as opposed to signs, so you and i might see this event differently, astrologically..

the reason i mentioned covid, was that although the majority of gov'ts around the world were in agreement about how to process it, there were and still are many controversies surrounding the topic of covid - vaccines and their effectiveness or not, pharmaceuticals and the huge amount of money they made off of these experimental mrna vaccines, the issue of where the pandemic originated, whether it was a pandemic or an attempt at controlling the masses with the lockdowns, vaccine passes and etc. etc.. - not that i want to get into this, but only to say - it was a very divisive thing ideologically speaking.. families were broken up over stuff like this.. is this a reflection of the triple conjunction, or was it more of a reflection of just the saturn/pluto conjunction? or was it as you say, a reflection of tropical aquarius or sidereal capricorn? as memory serves this was being played out in tropical capricorn..

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another example of an ideological division which might be manufactured, is connected to the advance of technology - AI, but not just that.. the huge increase in the public's use of computers, or tv screens, and etc. etc. - to receive information which may, or may not be real as opposed to manufactured.. people inteface in an increasingly artificial world in all of this, as opposed to the world of nature... this is a relatively new thing - perhaps the past 20 years or so have seen the huge increase in this.. prior to this, we had tv, and newspapers, but things seemed more calm and tranquil by comparison...

perhaps it is foolish of me to make parallels with the past and think of what an ideal world we lived in, in the past.. i am sure that is not the case and the advances in technology have been hugely beneficial... however, i can also see huge downsides to all of it too... if people want to disconnect from it all - i can understand that!

James wrote:

The reason i mentioned covid, was that although the majority of gov'ts around the world were in agreement about how to process it, there were and still are many controversies surrounding the topic of covid - vaccines and their effectiveness or not, pharmaceuticals and the huge amount of money they made off of these experimental mrna vaccines, the issue of where the pandemic originated, whether it was a pandemic or an attempt at controlling the masses with the lockdowns, vaccine passes and etc. etc.. - not that i want to get into this, but only to say - it was a very divisive thing ideologically speaking.. families were broken up over stuff like this.. is this a reflection of the triple conjunction, or was it more of a reflection of just the saturn/pluto conjunction? or was it as you say, a reflection of tropical aquarius or sidereal capricorn? as memory serves this was being played out in tropical capricorn..

I meant to emphasize that Covid was a world wide (universal) concern. Of course various controversies and other issues surrounding the virus and vaccines would involve planetary energies operating at that time. Primary energies are always in the planets, but overall Covid was a concern for the entire world. If we want to consider zodiac signs at all, that would be the symbolism of sidereal Capricorn: Universal, applying to all. Everyone on the same level. No hierarchy.

.Good to bring up the subject....as it is a hot potato.

Yes I agree with the problems to handle these polarizing creating subjects like these mentioned. Sometimes it's easier sometimes it's harder. Best would perhaps be to not bother, that would lead to more peace and wellbeing probably, but the human mind have a tendency to get attached to it's philosophy and world view, wanting to defend it, and so forth.

My spiritual mentors from the yoga tradition generally recommends not to go into these matters and discussions, as it takes away the focus from what is important, and giving peace and development in the end. I tend to go in the opposite directions from that general advice LOL

I find it very hard to tackle ProTrumpers in these forum settings. Just the thought of giving the nuclear codes to someone with that record and judgement is for me a no-no for humanity. But sadly it is not a isolated phenomena, I guess we get what we deserves lol. The world seems to be runned by idiots in many cases. North Korea for example.

likewise I find it hard to be gentle in cultures that suppressing free speach and will and expressing homophobia et,c.
Like Russia's non caring for human rights and life. Killing or jailing it's opposition politicians with fake accusations et,c. Showing also nonhuman approach to human values in Ukraine et,c, with the latest example being the destruction of the dam which experts say was done by Russia. How to watch this mad business without getting upset ? Watching the ridiculous justifications of the war. Denazification among others, while the president of the country Zelensky (a JEW), had his ancestors dead in nazi concentration camps.
Hearing Lavrov saying in united nation speach that Russia was attacked et.c.

sorry for the rant.

It's a polarising subject. A colleague from Bosnia we had a discussion about this some time ago, but then realising the the standpoints was so opposite that we gave up and now work fine together without talking about this.

A friend from India have stopped contact me or congratulate me on birthdays et,c since the war. I have read prorussian views on his social media. And I suspect it is because I have a little Ukrainian flag on my fb profile, which many people did apply since the war.
"US invaded Irak" he said. Yes. But that is widely seen as a big mistake by viewers in the west as well. So why mentioning that as a justification, as if Russia have the right to repeat that mistake.


Rant over.....sorry.

Maybe best to not express political views at all in response...?

I go for Nirvana !

We are not done yet with public water problems and false beliefs.
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Currently Neptune is lurking behind the Aries Point sesqui-quadrate Poseidon. (Ideas, understanding, education, culture, worldview, water masses, floods)
In February 2026, Saturn will join them bringing the above mentioned to a head.

Let's see what planetary pictures we have.
Neptune/Aries Point = public waters
Saturn/Aries Point = Death, losses in the general public.
Saturn/Neptune = Problems through or with gas, air or water. Plagues, contagious diseases.
Saturn/Poseidon = Aries Point = To isolate oneself mentally.
Neptune/Poseidon = Misrepresentation of facts, faked facts, false ideas and views worldwide. The wrong faith.

This position will hit Russia's natal Saturn/MC
A change of regime and the end of Putin.
For U.S.A, this hits their natal MC in the Sibly chart. Not a favorable period for the government.

Stefan wrote:.
My spiritual mentors from the yoga tradition generally recommends not to go into these matters and discussions, as it takes away the focus from what is important, and giving peace and development in the end. I tend to go in the opposite directions from that general advice LOL

stefan,

thanks for your thoughts.. i especially like the fact you want to incorporate buddhist thought and practice into your daily life..

in regards the rest of your post, what do you think of the idea of real verses fake or manufactured news, another ideological division we are seeing quite regularly?

let me give you an example of another ideological divide in this context as it relates to the russia-nato proxy war which you touch on in your post..

the nordstream pipeline and nova kakhova dam destruction are blamed on russia when russia stands the most to lose from these events... i realize world events can be explained any number of ways, and also that the truth is very unlikely to come out, given the nature of these ''terrorist'' events, and yet we are told that russia is at fault - over everything essentially! i believe the media is now an extension of the intel agencies and beholden to them.. not everyone shares my view.. the ideological divide between those believing 'the news' and those who think the news is 'fake' or manufactured is also growing by the day.. these are international terrorist actions, no matter who is responsible.. i think it is a serious topic and i do find it interesting that it is being largely ignored... the same thing happened with 9-11 and it definitely wasn't ignored.. for my thoughts on these events, i have spoken about it astrologically and they can be read in the mundane forum...

i think you are wise to follow your spiritual mentors advice.. i try to do the same.. one could argue the world is ripe for practicing peace in an atmosphere that strongly gravitate towards war at present.. wouldn't it be wonderful if the world leaders thought the same? seeking resolution as opposed to increasing conflict would be a part of it... oh and someone pointed out to me another ideological divide this morning who lives in norway... "rules based order" vs. "international law"... and on and on it goes...

ouranos

thanks for your post and the tropical chart for feb 2026 with a focus on a uraniam planet too! i had a conversation with an astrologer friend who lives in seattle who i have been friends with for about close to 40 years.. he and i met in north vancouver in the mid 80's and both found a connection in our strong interest in astrology.. i don't speak with him often, but we are talking about connecting more regularly.. he mentioned that when donald trump got in power, it coincided with the transit of pluto opposite the usa sibley sun position, which might indicate an usurping of legitimate power in the leader... i tend to think of trump as more uranian then plutonian, but regardless it was an interesting observation, i am sure others have made, but i hadn't heard of...

i had made some posts on the approx 250 cycle of pluto and that the 1776 charts for the usa were due the pluto return in this general area of time... what exactly a pluto return means is open to conjecture, but one was the idea of a civilization having a self life of approx 250 years.. i recall reading about this somewhere, but i am sorry i can't give a link to this idea.. i don't know that i did in the thread about this that i had shared here on skyscript either..

it is interesting to me the fairly close mercury-pluto opposition in many of these 1776 charts and what i associate with the rise of the cia and the outsized role it has playing in fostering world events often associated with war.. the fact that the pluto return coincides with this opposition in the 1776 charts strikes me as relevant to this topic - real or fake news.. as i see it mercury is info and pluto is manipulation... i don't need to go into that any further as it is fairly self explanatory if you believe in astrological symbolism.. again i believe the ideological divide of real verses fake news is relevant here..

as to the upcoming conjunction of saturn-neptune in 2026, i have to again mention andre barbault who has done fantastic work in mundane astrology and sadly i have very little access to it as most of it is in french.. however, barbault successfully predicted the dissolution of the ussr in the late 80's based on the triple conjunction of saturn-uranus-neptune.. he happened to notice the importance of the saturn-neptune cycle as it relates to the ideas of socialism/communism and the ussr.. in fact, a number of charts for ussr have this signature.. it is also found in other countries too - egpyt is another country that quickly comes to mind.. so, i do believe this is an important transit that will have bearing on russia, but i am not exactly sure how... what chart are you using for russia, as it is not the same as the one i favour!

what are your thoughts on the usa chart and all that i am touching on here regarding these ''ideological divides''? thanks..

James,
For Russia, I used the chart of Sept 20, 0862 (source: Penfield)

Barbault's prediction on the dissolution of U.S.S.R in the 90's was based on the conjunction of Uranus (East, capitalism) and Neptune (West, communism).
He saw this as a meeting (conjunction) between East and West.
With Saturn in the picture, it portrayed a change of structures in their relationship.
As it relates to Russia, the next Saturn/Neptune cycle every 36 years pulsates with important changes. And Putin is born with this cycle in his chart.

thanks ouranos

it was explained in the book of his translated into english as based off the triple conjunction.. maybe you are saying the same thing.. the issue on putin having this conjunction is very relevant to the importance of the 2026 conjunction.. he talks of retiring.. maybe this is it..

any thoughts on the uranus return to the usa chart? i have seen some astute commentary on this upcoming return by a fellow name andre on marjorie orrs site... here are the quotes below.. i think it is relevant to the wider conversation here.. these quotes are gotten off marjorie orrs post on uranus by a poster named 'andre'...

"Looking closer at the US chart, there is the added feature that the country was born in a major conflict against Britain in its original Uranus placement. The decisive battle of Yorktown, which could not have been won without French aid, took place the very year the planet was discovered. This makes the US the original Uranus country, which was confirmed by the Neptune-Pluto civilisation-making conjunction of 1891 directly opposite US Uranus. The tight link between Uranus and a major war in the US chart appears to reflect the interplay between Uranus and Mars, both in Gemini. Uranus at 8 Gemini seems to initiate conflict with a tragic surprise, such as Pearl Harbor. When Uranus reaches Mars at 22 Gemini, there is a major victory, so far. The fact that US Mars is now retrograde might lead to a different outcome, or give the US a background supporting role. The additional element that Mars is square Neptune gives the war a spiritual element, also much moral delusion. Another interesting factor is that Canada’s Uranus is conjunct its Sun at 8 Cancer. There seems to be also an interplay there with US Uranus. Canada’s Pluto at 15 Taurus is currently conjunct transiting Uranus. The only time this happened before was at the beginning of WWII, which Canda joined in 1939 with the UK, two years before the US. This time, Justin Trudeau’s career is likely to end in coming months because of Chinese interference in Canadian elections. The Canadian Uranus-Pluto conjunction appears to lead into, or announce, the US Uranus return.

and

"Add-on: the foundational Neptune-Uranus conjunction of 1891 was actually conjunct US Uranus. That is when American social and technological innovation began to achieve world prominence. This process reached its peak after the following Uranus return in 1944 and has been maintained for many decades by the transiting Neptune-Pluto sextile. It was severely tested by transiting Uranus square Pluto at the 2016 election and the following US Pluto return, both of which are now abating for the further dramatic challenge of the US Uranus return. Greater challenges lie ahead with the Uranus-Pluto opposition of 2047-48 conjunct the US Moon, with the chart of the US Constitution of 1787 adopted under the last transit of Pluto in Aquarius, afflicted. That is when I would expect a real American dicatorship and second revolution, as the Neptune in Gemini square to Pluto in Pisces approaches in 2067, which probably signals rising seas, a profoundly transformed US and world coastline, severe mass religious psychosis and social disruption, hopefully a renewed spiritual inspiration in the wake of collective suffering the Bible could only imagine. I am very glad I won’t be there."

Warning: All of my discussion is in the sidereal zodiac with Krishnamurti ayanamsa. It does not demean or trivialize the tropical in any way. Another topic for the philosophy section at a later time, maybe. This is as much a rant as about the astrology.

James: Simply put, I agree with much you say and in the end I believe it is your timely clarion call to remind us all that it’s okay to disagree so long as we are respectful and civil about it all. As far as the cause of the divisive nature of the events you mention, here is my take. Read on…

Therese: I disagree that the divide or political polarity is limited to the US. Trump is just one of our more obvious symptoms. Global social and political polarization is on the rise due to obscene income inequality and economic displacements.

Saturn as you point out is a major player in all that has been recounted here about division and world events. Yet, Saturn will push towards advancement but if you choose to channel its negative significations; that’s when it will crush you.

That brings me to Pluto.

Hey All: Pluto is not at all like Saturn in my experience. Pluto is, literally, ‘my way or the highway’ type of energy. Pluto truly ‘seizes’ you on a level only comparable to the Lunar Nodes.

Capricorn is about societal structure and establishments of power.
Pluto is power and transformation, to name a few of its many significations. Think upheaval, that works too. Rebirth is implied but not guaranteed with Pluto.

Pluto's transit in Capricorn serves as a catalyst for the current profound upheaval of governments and societies on a global scale. To exacerbate matters, the impending US Pluto return adds fuel to the fire. We are witnessing the unapologetic manifestation of Pluto's frigid iron fist across the globe.

It is an oversimplification as there are interactions with the other slow movers, but on the whole Pluto is the mill that grinds the global grist.

Some examples, the recent January 6th, 2021 mob of insurrectionists in Washington DC, a literal coup attempt, which should still be fresh in everyone’s mind — I watched this unfold live on television.

Pluto ingressed into Capricorn in February 2020, then retrograded back into Sag in the early summer, June I think, then traveled back into Capricorn in December just weeks before the violent January 6th insurrection attempt at the Capitol Building to overthrow a peaceful and lawful transfer of power in the US. More on Trump later.

Such a coup has happened before, and successfully, mind you. In 1934 in France, riots against their Parliament overthrew the government, which they called Feb6 in the same manner we use Jan6 in the US. (Pluto was in Cancer then.) It is still a day of remembrance for certain right wing extremists in France to this day.

Speaking of the US Pluto return, this same retrograde pattern happened back in 1772 and 1773 when the American Revolution was getting up to full steam. Remember the Boston Tea Party from history lessons in school? Yep, 1773.

Look at Xi’s ascension to literal unbridled power in China since Pluto in Cap.

There is Putin/Ukraine too… and we can't forget Trump, though he came in before Pluto in Cap. Still it applies. Pluto's energy is using him. He was responsible for a conspiracy to hold onto power on Jan. 6th. Worldwide, lots of copycat populist leaders have been tearing pages out of Donald’s playbook.

More Pluto in Cap… You cannot deny the worldwide rise of antisemitism and fascism even if you only listen/watch/read MSM.
[It reminds me of the situation in the early 30s with the discovery of Pluto but that is not a new observation. In fact, most of what I have said here has in some way been said by others in whole or in part.]

Widespread riots in Germany and France, well globally, are on the rise: https://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/blm ... l-protest/

Look at the intransigent white supremacy of elected and unelected power brokers in the US doing whatever they can to hold onto power and restrict voting rights via legislation and gerrymandering. It’s not only a Federal problem, but is even more alarming at the State level. Autocracy, read Pluto, is becoming a real political possibility in the US. We are in a generational fight for democracy in the United States.

Yet all of this is a global issue, from the west to east and in between. Speaking of which, don’t forget the Middle East.

It’s going to be a rough ride to get to 2040 when Pluto enters Aquarius.

FIN of RANT

AJ wrote:

Therese: I disagree that the divide or political polarity is limited to the US. Trump is just one of our more obvious symptoms. Global social and political polarization is on the rise due to obscene income inequality and economic displacements.

I didn't mean to say that the political divide was limited to the US. That's just what I'm most familiar with. In general I'm poorly versed on the affairs of other nations, so didn't want to comment. So I'm following this discussion with interest. But I am very aware of what you called 'income inequality and economic displacements'. I think I just hadn't connected these to the words 'divisive' or 'polarization'.

Therese Hamilton wrote: I didn't mean to say that the political divide was limited to the US.

Thanks for clarifying that Therese. Written communication has its limitations and statements can be understood by others in a way we didn't intend. I realize now you were in larger context talking about a more global POV with your insights into Saturn and Capricorn.
Be Well.