Hi everyone,

When you try to time events in horary, do you factor in retro movement?

The usual, tread-of-the-mill timing technique would factor in the movement by degrees of the two significators, but what if one turned retrograde before the aspect would be perfected.
Would you ignore the zodiacal portions in which that significator was retro? Or would you factor in as "proper" degrees-passed/time-units calculated?

J. Frawley and others mention that if a planet is applying to a retro planet, the matter will probably perfect sooner. Though, I wonder if it's only that...

Here's an example chart, though it's not a real horary.
Just to test the issue.
In it let's pretend a querent asks about "When will I meet my brother next"?

In the chart the querent is Mercury and his Brother is the Sun.
Mercury is in 0 degrees of Libra, it would venture out till the 8th degree of Libra, then turn retro, and would cnj. the Sun in 0 Libra.
In terms of timing this event, would you say that Mercury needs to pass 16 time units (hours/days/weeks/months)?
--
Or would you say he has to pass half a degree (which is the distance Merc had to pass from his original position to the position in which he met the Sun, disregarding the rest of his path)?
* Half a degree would be half a day/week/month/year/whatever
Thanks

P.S. Yes, I know; some may claim that the event (meeting brother) would be prevented as the chart may contain prohibitions, refranations and other such party-poopers. However, some horary authorities claim that events we know would happen for-sure (or almost for-sure), we could "push the significators further in time", treating prohibitions as events on-the-way, rather than them totally prohibiting.

'The circle has 360 degrees. Every degree corresponds to one unit of time. Units can be minutes, days, weeks, months or years. To arrive by the number of time unites elapsing until the predicted event, you count the number of degrees that are separating the Moon from an exact aspect with the significator (provided the aspect is an applying one, of course), or the number of degrees that separate the Moon or the significator from one of the angles, or the number of degrees that separate the Moon or the significator from the end of the sign they are in. These three methods are the most reliable ones, in my experience. Some astrologers use other methods, involving two planets for example, but I prefer the ones that I mentioned. I find that the Moon is by far the strongest timing indicator, and that, as concerns timing, we shouldn’t ignore even the non-ptolemaic aspects if she makes any on her way through the zodiacal circle. Sign boundaries do not act as real boundaries when timing is concerned. They can indicate a change or an event, or even point to the time when the action is completed or the subject matter is resolved, but if the Moon completes an aspect with the significator in the next sign, that’s OK, sign boundaries don’t really stop her.'
Ema Kurent
https://www.emakurent.com/en/2017/02/09 ... astrology/
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Symbolic and Mundane Timing discussed here with quotes from Jirjis, Bonatti, Lilly and Masha'allah.
Ryhan Butler
https://www.medievalastrologyguide.com/timing

In his book 'Lose this book... and find it with Horary', p. 75-76 Alphee Lavoie says...
'Accurately determining the compass direction and timing in the chart is probably the hardest thing to do in Horary...
Over my 30+ years of horary work, I find that this technique (symbolic timing) lacks a lot in producing dependable timing'.
and further...
'I have found very good results by using the following technique: take the difference of degrees between the 2 major rulers (Querent and Quesited). If the difference was 6 degrees this would mean that the time would be in increments or multiples of 6, such as 6 minutes, 6 hours, 6 days, 6 weeks, 6 months, 6 years... etc. I make my decision of timing based on whether the chart denotes fast, faster and fastest or slow, slower or slowest timing using the positions of the house and sign of the major rulers.... I then look in the ephemeris 6 days or 6 weeks later (and so on), and look for major transits that aspect one of the rulers.'
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Once we get a grasp of the symbolic timing, we can confirm with with the Ephemeris and keeping an eye on aspects perfecting from the ephemeris, change of signs and directions, retrograde or direct).
I have a case study where the time unit was 1 and in the ephemeris, the aspect between the significators was perfecting within a couple of months. Now the first time they met, the case was sent to court, the second time which was 1 year later, the case reached a conclusion.
And yes, Retro would be taken into consideration in your reading as a factor of slowing down the outcome and a sign or house change, a change in the process.

Best to you,
Ouranos

Ouranus:

Thanks for your reply.
I actually have Ema's book but wasn't aware of Alphee's timing method - quite interesting.

What do you think though? You'd give the theoretical horary chart 16 time units till the event (counting the retro degrees) or 0.5 time units (not counting the retro degrees)?

What do you think though? You'd give the theoretical horary chart 16 time units till the event (counting the retro degrees) or 0.5 time units (not counting the retro degrees)?

Not counting the retro degrees. 16 units is what you start to work with.
To guide you in your search for the most likely time.
Retro means that it will delay the issue.
When Lavoie says 'the chart denotes fast, faster and fastest or slow, slower or slowest timing', he says you have to consider several factors, the ones tradition tells us what defines the time.
- Angular, succedent or cadent
- Cardinal, fixed or mutable
- Significators (fast, average, slow or stationary)
- Moon (waxing or waning, lunar phase). By itself, the Moon is the fastest planet.

And last but not least, use your common sense. If someone ask you 'When will I die?' you can consider years as a time unit. But if someone ask you 'Should I accept this job offer?', you can ask what kind of deadline they are facing to accept the job and start to work from that.

Cheers!
Ouranos

Ouranos:

Not counting the retro degrees. 16 units is what you start to work with.

But if you'll use 16 time units, you would be counting the retro degrees as Mercury moves 8 TU forward and 8 backwards to a total of 16.

Also:
If you don't mind me asking.
Why go through all of these hoops and research just to answer a simple question, providing possibly unnecessary material?
As I've been studying astrology for about 20 years now, plus that I'm a practicing astrologer, I'm actually familiar with most of it and also have access to the sources you mention.
Not to deny the possible use this could have on other forum members who read posts without participating.
But I'm curious to know.

Sorry for the misunderstanding Dima,

Symbolic = the distance between 2 planets (disregard Retro or not)
Mundane = you can check in the ephemeris when the 2 planets will meet and this should correspond to a symbolic time unit.
Change of sign, house, movement R or D to be taken into account in the Mundane time.