Like I'm sure most of us who read this forum do, I have my own thoughts on the perennial debate over fate vs. free will. However, my intention in posting today isn't to give you my thoughts, but rather to share a link to a recent discussion on the topic between social psychologist Roy Baumeister and neuroscientist Robert Sapolsky. With the publication of his new book Determined: A Science of Life without Free Will, Sapolsky has been featured in numerous articles over the past month with headlines in the vein of SCIENTISTS: WE DON'T HAVE FREE WILL.

I enjoyed their debate and figured some of you might find it worth giving a listen to, too.

As this is an astrology forum, I've included the noon charts for both men's date and place of birth (no birth times available) below. It's interesting that both have Mercury in Taurus with Venus in Aries, Mars in Gemini, Jupiter in a sign of its detriment, and (possibly) Moons in Cancer.

I've also added a poll just for fun and to gauge the opinions here.

I hope some of you enjoy the debate (and maybe share some thoughts)!

Rudolf Steiner in the second part of the "Philosophy of Freedom" outlines the free will concept.
'Free will' suggests someone whose actions are not conditioned by his drives, habits or commandments. Which is not possible because we are not disconnected from our environment. And he says that only those who draw the reasons for their actions from pure or 'free thinking' act freely and self-determinedly.

So he places 'free thinking' over 'free will'.

In Waldorf schools, they address both in different ways.

How do you fortify 'free will' in a child?

By repeating the same actions every day, keeping a regular schedule, creating a predictable environment so that the child will learn that by his will he can change things around him.

How do you fortify 'free thinking' in a child?

'If you want your children to be intelligent, read them fairy tales. If you want them to be more intelligent, read them more fairy tales.' I have read that this quote comes from Einstein but others say that it comes from Steiner.
Anyway, what it means is that creative imagination is the essential element in the intellectual equipment of the free thinker, and that fairy tales are the childhood stimulus of this quality.

In astrology, a great astrologer is not someone who is being copied by other astrologers but someone who cannot be copied. A free thinker who has opened up the gates of knowledge and to which we should all strive.

Jason wrote: Thu Nov 23, 2023 11:35 am It's interesting that both have Mercury in Taurus with Venus in Aries, Mars in Gemini, Jupiter in a sign of its detriment, and (possibly) Moons in Cancer.

Are they scientists who adhere to their own beliefs, enjoy debates, and care about the science of the human mind?
:-)

Previously, I was reading a book in the bookstore, which mentioned that our brain makes choices and decisions several seconds before we become aware of it. (I don't remember the title of the book, sorry).

However, I am uncertain whether this explains whether or not we possess free will.

This is an exceptionally profound question.

Hi Jason, interesting talk.

It struck me that Sapolsky was essentially arguing that people have no idea of, nor can they ever fully grasp, why they act as they do and so they cannot be held responsible for their actions. Which sounds much the same as Socrates argument that we only think we know what motivates us when in reality we don't....the exception being that Socrates believes we "can" come to know our true motives and so in the end we are responsible, whether we choose to know ourselves, and change, or not.

I think Sapolsky's argument is a back door argument for the death penalty or life imprisonment. If a person commits an offense once he is bound to commit it again, and again, and again because he is fated to do so; there's a buried case for eugenics in there somewhere.

janegca mentioned the topic of "true motives," which is also of interest to me for discussion and understanding different perspectives from others, whether similar or different.

Allow me to share my background, thoughts, and experiences with you.

I was born in the 1980s in the People's Republic of China. Despite the end of the Cultural Revolution and the beginning of economic development and openness to the outside world in China at that time, my education instilled in me a fear and apprehension towards the Western world and Western people, and I held a strong appreciation for communist education.

I recall in 1991, watching on television as the Soviet Union dissolved, and I felt a deep sense of discomfort, as if the world was on the brink of collapse.

However, a series of personal setbacks and confusion about societal realities gradually led me to change my perspective.

In the year 2000, my father's unexpected car accident led to his untimely death, sparking my interest in fate and fortune-telling. Looking back now, it seems that this "accident" set me on a journey of self-exploration.

At that time, traditional Chinese divination practices, such as Bazi, Ziwu Dou Shu, and the I Ching, were strictly prohibited in China. Fortunately, with the development of the internet, I had the opportunity to explore Western astrology.

From that point on, I immersed myself in the exploration and learning of Western astrology.

However, the pivotal turning point that truly changed the trajectory of my destiny was in 2009 when I came to Taiwan (Republic of China) due to marriage.

As we approach the year 2024, reflecting on these 15 years, my thoughts have undergone significant changes. Not only has my perspective expanded, but I have also come to understand my "homeland" even more. Surprisingly, during my time in China, I had less understanding of it.

This year, when I returned to China to visit family and friends, I came to understand that the lives of the majority follow a similar script, as if molded from the same template. It's a cycle of being born, attending a good school, finding a stable job, getting married and having children, retiring, entering old age, and eventually passing away.

I couldn't find anyone openly sharing their true motives with me during my interactions, I guess.

For a long time, I was unsure of my true motives.

It was also this year that I gradually realized that my true motives lie within, rather than in external exploration.

I attempted to connect with my own subconscious and the collective unconscious (through studying classic fairy tales, myths, and legends). I feel that my inner self has become increasingly calm, accompanied by an indescribable sense of peace and contentment.

I'm not certain if this is my true motive, but the journey of looking inward and establishing a connection with my subconscious has certainly brought about a positive transformation.

Hey Ouranos, Wei, Jane - I'm glad to see you all here. Thanks for taking the time to offer some input.

Ouranos wrote: Rudolf Steiner in the second part of the "Philosophy of Freedom" outlines the free will concept.
'Free will' suggests someone whose actions are not conditioned by his drives, habits or commandments. Which is not possible because we are not disconnected from our environment. And he says that only those who draw the reasons for their actions from pure or 'free thinking' act freely and self-determinedly.

So he places 'free thinking' over 'free will'.

Very early in the discussion (around 3:30), Baumeister shares a similar sentiment when he mentions that "free will," and specifically the use of the word will, might not be the most appropriate term to use in exploring this question. I'm not sure whether Baumeister's thinking overlaps with Steiner's much further because I haven't read Steiner on my own and am admittedly more aware of criticisms of his work (claims of ecofascism, racism, and inciting Nazism) than I am intimately familiar with his writing firsthand - but I do find value? solace? in the singular quote you shared.

Ouranos wrote: In astrology, a great astrologer is not someone who is being copied by other astrologers but someone who cannot be copied. A free thinker who has opened up the gates of knowledge and to which we should all strive.

I'm a little wary of this take, Ouranos. lol. It heads into some misty terrain IMO - reminiscent of the theosophical stance on evolved vs. unevolved souls - an outlook I have a hard time getting down with. But that's just where I stand - to each their own.

Wei wrote:This is an exceptionally profound question.

You can say that again, Wei :) Thanks for sharing some of your personal history and teasing out thoughts on this. You mention:

Wei wrote: this year I gradually realized that my true motives lie within, rather than in external exploration.

I attempted to connect with my own subconscious and the collective unconscious (through studying classic fairy tales, myths, and legends). I feel that my inner self has become increasingly calm, accompanied by an indescribable sense of peace and contentment.

and I'm glad to hear it.

It's hard to describe, but investigating the question of "Who are you?" has been a gateway for me in my personal life, and it sounds like this is what you are describing. Astrology, literature and legends, philosophy, etc. have all been pivotal to this exploration - but I also realize that, not unlike your mention of visiting your homeland this year and feeling that many people were just "following the same script", the structures outlined in astrology, literature, philosophy, etc are also a script of sorts, a scaffolding of concepts which can have influence on our thinking and decision-making for better or for worse. I try and allow myself to put them down as much as I can and tune in to what might be referred to as "felt sense" - a kind of bodymind convergence. But that's a whole other can of worms I won't get into here.

janegca wrote: I think Sapolsky's argument is a back door argument for the death penalty or life imprisonment. If a person commits an offense once he is bound to commit it again, and again, and again because he is fated to do so; there's a buried case for eugenics in there somewhere.

Jane, I'm glad you found the talk interesting. I'm with you on the quoted text above. It seems like a slippery slope to me too.

The first member talk of Skyscript Newsletters is on "Fate & Free Will" (recorded on August 3, 2022).

Related article: "Albertus Magnus & Prognostication by the Stars" by Sue Toohey.

https://www.skyscript.co.uk/magnus.html

In that talk, Deb and others shared many interesting historical stories, perspectives, and personal experiences, but ultimately, consensus was not reached (as I understand it) – whether we have free will.

Personally, I fundamentally believe that destiny is predetermined, and everything can be traced. The so-called surprises, unexpected events, and miracles are just a result of not "previously observed (identified by our consciousness)".

However, I instinctively remain "vigilant" and "resistant" to this determinism within myself. :-)

These may have nothing to do with astrology...

The Anatomy of Violence: The Biological Roots of Crime

https://www.amazon.com/Anatomy-Violence ... 0307475611

Eugenics

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics

Down syndrome and Down syndrome screening

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Down_syndrome

Wei wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 1:12 pm Personally, I fundamentally believe that destiny is predetermined, and everything can be traced. The so-called surprises, unexpected events, and miracles are just a result of not "previously observed (identified by our consciousness)".

Hi Wei ... I think its 'predetermined' only in the sense that what happens to us is limited by what we can experience as human beings. I think part of the confusion is that we, as human beings, tend to think of 'fated' events as 'big' events when really what happens in our lives is due to the accumulation of small choices we make every day until one day they overwhelm us for good or bad. And sometimes, accidents do happen but even when they do our decisions have usually led us into the thick of them.

I am glad your choices are leading you to inner peace and contentment; its not an easy state to find.

Jason wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 9:59 am Jane, I'm glad you found the talk interesting. I'm with you on the quoted text above. It seems like a slippery slope to me too.

Yes, a worrisome one. The other one that bothers me is the denial of a 'self'; an insistence that we are just an amorphous set of experiences with no centre, no core being. Find it disturbing.

janegca wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 6:59 pm Yes, a worrisome one. The other one that bothers me is the denial of a 'self'; an insistence that we are just an amorphous set of experiences with no centre, no core being. Find it disturbing.

I agree, Jane. Worrisome indeed.

I’m glad you brought up the denial of a “self” position; it’s a trapdoor I’ve skirted the edges of and almost fallen into in the past from time to time, once due to a dance with nihilism/pessimism and neuroscience that I undertook, and again after a misunderstanding (or "purist" reading) of Buddhist texts.

When I think back on those times, a simple, beautiful Sufi adage I've since learned comes to mind.:
'I heard a voice whispering to me in the night saying, `There is no such thing as a voice whispering in the night.'

Hi janegca,

You've brought up another insightful topic. In response to your post, personally, I feel it's another step in my self-healing journey. Thank you.

I'd like to share with you a story that I've recently grown fond of and often reflect upon.

This story, I initially came across in 'The Hero with a Thousand Faces,' and I went on to read the original text.

Who am I? Where do I come from? Where am I going? Philosophical reflections like these never cease.

I'm willing to share more of my thoughts and feelings with you, but there are some ideas and experiences that I find challenging to articulate and describe in words.

In fact, I often find myself in moments of self-doubt, wondering if my experiences, thoughts, and feelings are only suitable for myself and may not necessarily resonate with others.

My journey is far from over. :-D

Just as you wished me well, I also hope to hear good news from you soon.

Buddhist Tales : Prince Five-Weapons and Sticky-Hair (The Diamond Weapon)

http://www.buddhanet.net/bt_5.htm

Jason wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 9:45 pm When I think back on those times, a simple, beautiful Sufi adage I've since learned comes to mind.:
'I heard a voice whispering to me in the night saying, `There is no such thing as a voice whispering in the night.'

lol...hadn't heard that one before; all the voices in my head thank you.