This is my first post. I am a beginner in astrology. My main source of guidance thus far is John Frawley's Horary Textbook. (I have not mastered the Horary Textbook. I am open to other schools of thoughts. I point out my source of guidance thus far, so that other people can know where I am coming from when responding to me.)

My question here is: If I ask, "How is my talisman working", should the talisman be the 2nd House or the 5th House?

My thinking is:

1. Talismans are my creation. Therefore, they should be the 5th House.

2. However, once made, talismans are my moveable possessions. Therefore, they should be the 2nd House.

3. Alternatively - and this is a possibly an unusual viewpoint - talismans are my servants. Therefore, they should be the 6th House.

Which assignation is correct? Which assignation do you use?

Hi Neptune789,

I'm not an astro-mage, so someone more familiar with those arts might think differently about this, but I'd give the talisman to the 2nd house; it's a moveable possession, resource, and 'assistant'.

Hello Neptune,

My question here is: If I ask, "How is my talisman working", should the talisman be the 2nd House or the 5th House?

What did you have in mind when you said 'talisman working'? Selling? Power of your creation? Usefulness?
Did you cast a chart?

Thank you,
Ouranos

Hi, Ouranos.

What did you have in mind when you said 'talisman working'? Selling? Power of your creation? Usefulness?
Did you cast a chart?

By "working", I meant whether the talisman has achieved or was in the process of achieving the purpose for which I created it. I did cast a chart.

Hi, Jason.

I'm not an astro-mage, so someone more familiar with those arts might think differently about this, but I'd give the talisman to the 2nd house; it's a moveable possession, resource, and 'assistant'.

My question more generally would be: When is a creation the 5th House, and when is a creation the 2nd House?

This question is not necessarily restricted to magical workings. For instance, if I am an artist, and I made a painting, is it the 5th House or the 2nd House?

Just to add to this discussion, on this forum, in a previous thread, Sue wrote:

I think there is a precedent in traditional astrology for placing such a thing in the 5th house. I am pretty sure Lilly placed plays in the 5th house although I will have to check on that. He may have meant it as an example of pleasure. However, plays are creative. In the Latin language, the words for creativity are the same as the words for giving birth (a 5th house issue). Some Latin words that mean creative:

In The Horary Textbook by John Frawley, in the exercise regarding house assignations in Chapter 3, the answer for "The book you have written" was given as "Your baby: 5th house".

At first glance, it seems that things created by you should be assigned to the 5th House. However, perhaps a subtle distinction could be made as follows:

1. The book you have written - as an intangible thing, not necessarily referring to any book in particular - the 5th House. E.g., Will my book be popular, etc.

2. A particular physical copy of the book you have written, e.g., where did I leave my copy of the book I have written?

With Point #1 above, I am satisfied that the 5th House is correct. With Point #2 above, however, I am not sure whether it should be the 2nd House or the 5th House. It would seem that, as we are talking about "the book I have written" in its capacity as a moveable possession, it should be the 2nd House.

By "working", I meant whether the talisman has achieved or was in the process of achieving the purpose for which I created it. I did cast a chart.

And what was the purpose for which you had created it? Could be a 10th House issue as well?
Can you share your chart?
Talisman... purpose... there seems to be some magic involved here. Can you spell it or is it too intimate?

Thank you,
Ouranos

Hi Neptune: You might want to send your query directly to some folks that specialize in western talismanic magic, like Christopher Warnock (https://www.renaissanceastrology.com/contact.html) and Nina Gryphon (https://ninagryphon.com/pages/contact).

They may or may not answer, but it's certainly worth a try.

Be Well.

Hi, Ouranos,

I try not to discuss these things in too much detail. That being said, in my view, there are two approaches to this:

1. Based on the intended purpose of the talisman, one can look at how the situation is developing. For instance, if a person created a talisman for love, then the person can look at the 1st House and the 7th House rulers to see if the situation is turning better or worse.

2. One can also look at the talisman itself. In some cases, e.g., if the talisman is created more as an experiment, then the person might not be all too interested in "how the situation is developing". He is interested really in the talisman itself.

It is the second approach that I am considering. However, this, e.g., to which house we should assign a talisman, should really be a basic question that anyone (e.g., a horary astrologer, who does not make talismans) can answer. This is because, setting aside the idea that a talisman may be a servant (e.g., the 6th House), really the situation is parallel to that of an artist and his painting. When is the painting the 2nd House, and when is the painting the 5th House? This, perhaps, is my real question.

............

Hi, AJ,

Thank you for your referral. I am aware of these people. I do think that discussing it with them may be helpful.

When is the painting the 2nd House, and when is the painting the 5th House? This, perhaps, is my real question.

Well.
2nd House if you want to sell/buy
5th House if you consider painting as a hobby, creation or promotion of your art.

In all cases, when you ask a horary question, there is an 'inner work' involved in the process for the question to become clear. Even more so if you ask another astrologer to read your chart.

Best to you,
Ouranos

Hi, Ouranos,

Well.
2nd House if you want to sell/buy
5th House if you consider painting as a hobby, creation or promotion of your art.

Example #1

Let's say I am a hobbyist. I made a painting. I gave the painting to my friend as a gift. Then, I want to know whether my friend likes the painting or not. Would you put the painting in the 2nd House or the 5th House?

Example #2

Now, let's say I am a professional artist. I made a painting. I put the painting in display in a gallery. Then, I want to know whether the public wil like my painting or not. Would you put the painting in the 2nd House or the 5th House?

In all cases, when you ask a horary question, there is an 'inner work' involved in the process for the question to become clear. Even more so if you ask another astrologer to read your chart.

You mean that (1) a question first comes to me in a rough form, (2) I record the time of the question and cast a chart for it, and (3) by looking at the chart, the real import of my question becomes clear? Is this what you mean by the "inner work"?

Neptune,
In example #1, I would look at the relationship between the AS and the 11th House
In example #2, the relationship between the AS and the 7th House.

You mean that (1) a question first comes to me in a rough form, (2) I record the time of the question and cast a chart for it, and (3) by looking at the chart, the real import of my question becomes clear? Is this what you mean by the "inner work"?

No, if the question comes in a rough form, you are not ready, it must come in a clear and pressing form.
Let's say you ask yourself 'Where is my book?' and then you start doing your laundry, call a friend and cook a lunch. You are not ready!
Search everywhere in the house, ask your spouse about your book, call a friend to see if you might have forgotten it in his house. Then you are ready to ask yourself 'Where is my book?'

Another indicator about your question is the Moon. Compare 2 charts when the question is clear/unclear and you will see that invariably the chart when the question is clear is also clear. Meaning 'fit to be read'.

Ouranos

Hi, Ouranos,

Thank you for your responses. They have been very educational.

In example #1, I would look at the relationship between the AS and the 11th House
In example #2, the relationship between the AS and the 7th House.

Certainly, in the examples given, I would look at those relationships.

That being said, the primary issue in those examples was the painting. It seems to me that the painting should be given a signifier. For instance, in Example #1, my friend may like me very much. In this case, the ruler of the 11th House may be in my exaltation. However, perhaps he doesn't like my painting. In this case, the ruler of the house to which the painting is attributed should be different from my signifier.

No, if the question comes in a rough form, you are not ready, it must come in a clear and pressing form.
Let's say you ask yourself 'Where is my book?' and then you start doing your laundry, call a friend and cook a lunch. You are not ready!
Search everywhere in the house, ask your spouse about your book, call a friend to see if you might have forgotten it in his house. Then you are ready to ask yourself 'Where is my book?'

I agree with you that charts can be clear or not clear.

That being said, with your approach, wouldn't there be a possibility of the astrologer subconsciously manipulating the timing? For instance, in your example, I start thinking about the book at 11:00 a.m. Being an astrologer, I realize immediately that I can use horary astrology to find the book. (This would be when I usually record the time of my questions.)

However, using your guidelines, I start looking for the book around the house first. The search goes on throughout the day and does not really end at any clear point in time. For illustration - let's say at 3:00 p.m., 3:30 p.m., 4:00 p.m. or 4:30 p.m. - at any one of those times, I could decide to call it a day and, using your guidelines, use that time as the basis of my chart. Wouldn't this take the timing of the question out of the hands of the universe and put it into the hands of the astrologer?

Also, what do you mean by "inner work" above?

That being said, the primary issue in those examples was the painting. It seems to me that the painting should be given a signifier. For instance, in Example #1, my friend may like me very much. In this case, the ruler of the 11th House may be in my exaltation. However, perhaps he doesn't like my painting. In this case, the ruler of the house to which the painting is attributed should be different from my signifier.

Agree. A fifth house coming in the way somehow. But remember, you asked if your friend liked your painting. Why would try to answer the question if he liked you? That's a different question. Stick with question, don't try to read The Lord of the Ring.

That being said, with your approach, wouldn't there be a possibility of the astrologer subconsciously manipulating the timing?

You can try but be honest with yourself. You were crying on the couch when you lost your book and the question popped up. Shouldn't you record this time?
The problem with the astrologer asking a question about himself is that he is full of expectations, 'ankguish' as they say in the old books and he is like a deer about to be hit by a big truck in the middle of the night. He sees the lights but he has nowhere to go.
If you read a horary as a professional, you can play with the time... in some situations. Someone calls you and leaves a message on your voicemail. And the question is unclear or he just mentioned that he has a question. Now you can peruse quickly the ephemeris and decide to call him back under a more auspicious time (after Saturn got hit by the big truck!)
That's how far I would go and maybe better qualified astrologers have bigger trucks than mine.

Cheers,
Ouranos

P.S. Inner working means engage yourself in the question.